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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 19:11:31 GMT -5
1.I don't see what makes the current definition of street leveler ridiculous.Especially when you're saying someone like Spider-Man is above that when he regularly takes care of common thugs. he effortlessly take's care of common thugs, they are not even a credible threat to him. He's in a completely different tier of power. Therefore he shouldn't have a label that implies the tier in which common thugs reside is the same as him. Not when his abilities allow him to fight things with relative ease that humans have no chance against. 2.Normal thugs with a 9mm are nothing for anyone else you consider to be below Spider-Man either.Characters who are peak human in most areas like Captain America,Daredevil,Moon Knight deal with ordinary thugs with guns without being hit by ANY bullets ALL the time. The amount of trouble, the difference of difficulty. The treat to them is different. Batman and Captain America are for their respective universe something like the "limit" of human (Cap above but for purpose of measurement they have the same role for their respective universes). When Cap and Bruce fight armies of ninjas, the amount of effort they have to put it not die is significantly larger then Peter Parker. Peter can effortlessly do things with zero combat training that Bruce and Steve have to put in their A game to succeed at and even then, it gets argued constantly that it's PIS. Therefore, Steve and Wayne are not on the same tier as Peter Parker. Also when you talk about Spider-sense there are characters who are normal humans\peak humans who have precognative abilities.Radar sense may eve be better in terms of knowing when someone is going to shoot.Daredevil has used it to dodge snipers so far ahead of time he's had time to alert other characters and get them out of the way. (Example. in v2 when he was sitting with Black Widow).So is Daredevil not street level or does Spider-Man's spider-sense only add to him not being street level since his speed is superhuman and Daredevil's is not..despite the fact it clearly allows them both to dodge bullets? Daredevil has a super-power, but even with it. Bullets are significantly more threatning. What he can fight hand to hand is not in the same category, because Peter has strength of several tons. He has a level of agility, mobility and speed. That mean that any proper application of them would render any threat on the level of DD very easy. DD whom can be challenged logically by human level threats. The issue is that logical, intelligent writing dictates that the difference in what is a credible challenge to Spider-Man is in a completely different power level then DD. 3.A characters opponents is the basis for what street level is because otherwise it defeats the purpose of the label.Spider-Man takes care of the streets of New York.That's it.(street level).Unless someone helps him or he's with the Avengers or some other grouping of heroes, he's not doing anything above and beyond that. His doing of that is not dangerous to him. He's so far above the threats on the street NYC that saying he's "street level" is fallacious. Peter sails over these threats, he towers and dominates them. The mere fact that he's a competitive threat to villains fighting a world class team (the Avengers) is all the more indication, that Spider-Man is not properly labeled, given what his powerset effortlessly allows him to do. 4.Whether the common criminal is a match for Spider-Man is besides the point i'm making because just like the instances you mentioned with the gun...they aren't any trouble for ANY character that calls themselves a costumed hero.Those characters are canon fodder to street levelers too.The fact of the matter is Spider-Man repeatedly deals with those type of characters. see above on the difference. stated many times 5.Are you saying that being HUMAN makes you street level? I'm saying that having a range of abilities where the things, dangers and threats found on the street (gangs, guns, etc) can pose a challenge and are credibly able to be used in a threatening manner against you is what should be defined as street level. Shouldn't you be ABOVE street level if STREET LEVELERS are no match for you? If the term street level was properly defined and used. Spider-Man would not be labeled as street level. He completely outclasses anything even in the looses sense of what can be found on even comic book streets. Whether you want to call it bad writing or not many characters that you would consider human\street level HAVE given Spider-Man trouble. Except in all logic they shouldn't. Spider-Man should be able with his attributes to lay waste to a group of them without ever having a single hit land on him. It is bad writing and using it as a justification for putting Spider-Man in a same or similar weight class is wrong. Bad writing is never an acceptable defense to a position. 6.You can't call it bad writing when it happens in every case in which speed comes up. Yes I can, a person can say an infinite amount of times that a regular poodle and an enraged grizzly bear are in the same weight class. They will always be wrong. You can't add what SHOULD be to a definition.This is simply how comics are written and always have been. And I'm pointing out that this manner of writing has been wrong since the beginning.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 19:36:02 GMT -5
I like the current definition, because when I hear street level, I think of the type of story being told. The reason Spider-Man is a street level character isn't because of his attributes or his rogue gallery, or anything having to do with his battle stats and track record, it's because the stories he's written in all have something to do with the streets of New York.
The only problem I see is that when people talk about street level characters in battles an' junk, they lose the meaning behind why it's the term for the character in the first place. It's a lil' bit easier to talk about cosmic level because typically cosmic level stories all involve characters that have "cosmic level" power, but even there, that's not always the case. Guardians of the Galaxy was a cosmic level story, but a great majority of the characters were, going by strictly attributes alone, "street level," but there's no real "street" in the cosmos, so to me, that doesn't make sense.
Comics are about stories, and while those stories have great characters with amazing abilities, the genre, so to speak, isn't necessarily about the physical attributes of the characters, but about the stories being told, and it's for that reason I think the term "street level" as it's used now makes sense and should continue to stay.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
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Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 19:44:11 GMT -5
1.I don't see what makes the current definition of street leveler ridiculous.Especially when you're saying someone like Spider-Man is above that when he regularly takes care of common thugs. he effortlessly take's care of common thugs, they are not even a credible threat to him. He's in a completely different tier of power. Therefore he shouldn't have a label that implies the tier in which common thugs reside is the same as him. Not when his abilities allow him to fight things with relative ease that humans have no chance against. The amount of trouble, the difference of difficulty. The treat to them is different. Batman and Captain America are for their respective universe something like the "limit" of human (Cap above but for purpose of measurement they have the same role for their respective universes). When Cap and Bruce fight armies of ninjas, the amount of effort they have to put it not die is significantly larger then Peter Parker. Peter can effortlessly do things with zero combat training that Bruce and Steve have to put in their A game to succeed at and even then, it gets argued constantly that it's PIS. Therefore, Steve and Wayne are not on the same tier as Peter Parker. Daredevil has a super-power, but even with it. Bullets are significantly more threatning. What he can fight hand to hand is not in the same category, because Peter has strength of several tons. He has a level of agility, mobility and speed. That mean that any proper application of them would render any threat on the level of DD very easy. DD whom can be challenged logically by human level threats. The issue is that logical, intelligent writing dictates that the difference in what is a credible challenge to Spider-Man is in a completely different power level then DD. His doing of that is not dangerous to him. He's so far above the threats on the street NYC that saying he's "street level" is fallacious. Peter sails over these threats, he towers and dominates them. The mere fact that he's a competitive threat to villains fighting a world class team (the Avengers) is all the more indication, that Spider-Man is not properly labeled, given what his powerset effortlessly allows him to do. see above on the difference. stated many times I'm saying that having a range of abilities where the things, dangers and threats found on the street (gangs, guns, etc) can pose a challenge and are credibly able to be used in a threatening manner against you is what should be defined as street level. If the term street level was properly defined and used. Spider-Man would not be labeled as street level. He completely outclasses anything even in the looses sense of what can be found on even comic book streets. Except in all logic they shouldn't. Spider-Man should be able with his attributes to lay waste to a group of them without ever having a single hit land on him. It is bad writing and using it as a justification for putting Spider-Man in a same or similar weight class is wrong. Bad writing is never an acceptable defense to a position. Yes I can, a person can say an infinite amount of times that a regular poodle and an enraged grizzly bear are in the same weight class. They will always be wrong. You can't add what SHOULD be to a definition.This is simply how comics are written and always have been. And I'm pointing out that this manner of writing has been wrong since the beginning. 1.You're not saying anything different that what you just said.Of course Spider-Man effortlessly takes care of common thugs..so does every other street leveler.There is no difference.Common thugs aren't a credible threat to any hero.Unless they sit there and get shot or hit they will always easily take down common thugs.ALWAYS.Unless they were already injured or handicapped in some way they always easily run through regular men.Any character that Spider-Man fights that he can repeatedly trash with minimal effort (including his rouges) will have the same outcome for other street levelers.Spider-Man being able to do it easier doesn't matter at all because the fact is those thugs aren't an actual threat for street levelers.Human characters use their skills to do what Spider-Man NEEDS powers to do but they are still doing the SAME things. 2.Same thing with bullets.Bullets aren't any more of a threat to Daredevil than they are to Spider-Man.Daredevil has fought several gunman armed with semi-automatic weapons and not even been touched.Rarely does an unskilled gunman even graze Daredevil.However skilled gunman like the Punisher and Bullseye who have proven to be able to hit Daredevil have the same lack of difficulty hitting Spider-Man.His speed it irrelevant. 3.Don't exaggerate what Spider-Man can do he doesn't sail over the threats of NYC.Every single character in his rouge gallery at some point has given him trouble..many have beaten him.They count as the threats of NYC because that's where they choose to do their crimes.So NO, Spider-Man does not saild through the threats in NYC.If you're simply talking about thugs and regular criminals then again human characters have no trouble with them either so you don't have a point. 4.You know that none of the threats in NYC are actually dangerous to Deadpool or Wolverine right? Are they not street level? 5.What a character should do and what they do, do are two different things.The fact that certain characters shouldn't tag Spider-Man is irrelevant.The fact is that those characters do and in turn they are allowed to keep up with the said character. 6.The comparison of a poodle to a grizzly bear is so far off.First off you're comparing two REAL animals.Second of all comics aren't created by realistic standards when it comes to any ability so you can't really argue what's realistic because that goes against was consistently happens in comics every day.
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Post by paireon on Aug 9, 2011 20:42:40 GMT -5
1.I don't see what makes the current definition of street leveler ridiculous.Especially when you're saying someone like Spider-Man is above that when he regularly takes care of common thugs. Superman regularly does the same in Metropolis (as is shown in many, many issues), but I doubt anybody considers him street-level. 2.Normal thugs with a 9mm are nothing for anyone else you consider to be below Spider-Man either.Characters who are peak human in most areas like Captain America,Daredevil,Moon Knight deal with ordinary thugs with guns without being hit by ANY bullets ALL the time.Fact of the matter is just like them if Spider-Man gets shot he will be hurt and in some cases he COULD die.So again..i'm not seeing how Spider-Man is so different.Also when you talk about Spider-sense there are characters who are normal humans\peak humans who have precognative abilities.Radar sense may eve be better in terms of knowing when someone is going to shoot.Daredevil has used it to dodge snipers so far ahead of time he's had time to alert other characters and get them out of the way. (Example. in v2 when he was sitting with Black Widow).So is Daredevil not street level or does Spider-Man's spider-sense only add to him not being street level since his speed is superhuman and Daredevil's is not..despite the fact it clearly allows them both to dodge bullets? As far as I know, Daredevil's abilities in this category are far from infallible; I'm pretty sure he's been hit by bullets a few times. Spider-Man, to my knowledge, has never been hit by bullets, despite being shot at about as often, so whether thanks to superior senses or agility, his bullet-dodging-fu is better. 3.A characters opponents is the basis for what street level is because otherwise it defeats the purpose of the label.Spider-Man takes care of the streets of New York.That's it.(street level).Unless someone helps him or he's with the Avengers or some other grouping of heroes, he's not doing anything above and beyond that. You speak as though this was objective and immutable, which it isn't. And several things Spidey's done more-or-less by himself are above and beyond that (Doc Ock, Green Goblin and Carnage' plans are consistently above and beyond street-level scope and mentality, Lizard, Vulture and Venom also do on occasion, and even a lot of foes «slumming» street-level capers like Rhino, Hydro-Man, Sandman and Scorpion can bring so much power to the table that a brawl can easily level a neighbourhood or a skyscraper). 4.Whether the common criminal is a match for Spider-Man is besides the point i'm making because just like the instances you mentioned with the gun...they aren't any trouble for ANY character that calls themselves a costumed hero.Those characters are canon fodder to street levelers too.The fact of the matter is Spider-Man repeatedly deals with those type of characters. This is just a repeat of your first point but with more words. See my above response. 5.Are you saying that being HUMAN makes you street level? Shouldn't you be ABOVE street level if STREET LEVELERS are no match for you? Whether you want to call it bad writing or not many characters that you would consider human\street level HAVE given Spider-Man trouble. Batman is undoubtedly street-level. He can give the whole JLA trouble. The Punisher gave trouble to many supers way above his weight class. Bad writing or not this is just a very bad measurement. 6.You can't call it bad writing when it happens in every case in which speed comes up.The idea of speed is distorted in all comics in general.You can't add what SHOULD be to a definition.This is simply how comics are written and always have been. Just because it happens in every case doesn't magically make it «not-bad». Ironically, magic itself is one of those constantly-fudged things that simply can't be considered well-written the vast majority of times (unless it's by Moore, Gaiman or a few others smart and imaginative enough not to treat it as a cross between a swiss army knife and Disney's Aladdin's genie).
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:03:29 GMT -5
Guardians of the Galaxy was a cosmic level story, but a great majority of the characters were, going by strictly attributes alone, "street level," but there's no real "street" in the cosmos, so to me, that doesn't make sense. I think you just proved to yourself that "street level" is determined by stats.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 21:07:02 GMT -5
Guardians of the Galaxy was a cosmic level story, but a great majority of the characters were, going by strictly attributes alone, "street level," but there's no real "street" in the cosmos, so to me, that doesn't make sense. I think you just proved to yourself that "street level" is determined by stats. You misinterpreted. I was using that as an example of why it shouldn't be something that defines character stats, and why it should be defined by the story. That's why I used quotation marks around "street" in that context.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 21:09:13 GMT -5
You misinterpreted. I was using that as an example of why it shouldn't be determined by stats, and why it should be determined by the story. That's why I used quotation marks around "street" in that context. no Ckal is spot on, by defining them by their abilities and with the term "street level" regardless of the setting of the story you've basically shown that street level should be attribute based. I can write a street level story set in space, doesn't mean it's not street level.
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Post by paireon on Aug 9, 2011 21:20:04 GMT -5
You misinterpreted. I was using that as an example of why it shouldn't be determined by stats, and why it should be determined by the story. That's why I used quotation marks around "street" in that context. no Ckal is spot on, by defining them by their abilities and with the term "street level" regardless of the setting of the story you've basically shown that street level should be attribute based. I can write a street level story set in space, doesn't mean it's not street level. Plus, street-level characters can be used in a cosmic storyline (Batman in lots of JLA storylines) and vice-versa (The Spectre dealing Vengeance on petty crooks). The character's power level and that of the story he's in need not be the same (cosmic-levelers in a street-level story can be a good way to explore their humanity or lack thereof, and street-levelers in a cosmic-level story is a good way to posit whether or not you can make a difference faced with things so much bigger than you, and what you could do about it).
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 21:21:22 GMT -5
exactly.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:24:36 GMT -5
The term "street level" is basically used as a reference point or an example of what these types of heroes are: they are more like ordinary people. Much like the common man or woman who populate the streets of our cities and towns. They lack powers or super attributes.
Let's take a look at non 'street level' characters such as Superman or Green Lantern. They are more than ordinary men. They have powers and have the ability to go anywhere. They are not like ordinary people. Therefore; not street level, but far above it.
If these (street level) types of heroes had a different name, like "ordinary level" or "C class" we might not be having this conversation. People think because of the word 'street', it has other meanings. But in the end, they are both describing and defining the same thing, a character's attributes. This is why they are in this group.
Example: Thor hung around in Broxton, Oklahoma for years. The vast majority of his time was spent on earth, in the cities, in Broxton, in Latveria, where ever, fighting enemies. Does this mean he is a street level hero because for the majority of the time since 2007 he fought on the ground? Nope.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 21:25:46 GMT -5
no Ckal is spot on, by defining them by their abilities and with the term "street level" regardless of the setting of the story you've basically shown that street level should be attribute based. I can write a street level story set in space, doesn't mean it's not street level. The simple fact that you can write a street level story set in space adds onto why the term "street level" shouldn't be based on a character's attributes. It's used to define the setting of the story taking place, not the characters used in the story. Using Guardians of the Galaxy as an example, they were characters no greater or worse than Wolverine, but their stories were about stopping the universe from falling apart. That's not something a guy like Luke Cage, Daredevil, or Spider-Man regularly do, because those aren't the stories that are regularly told with them. That is a story that is very cosmic based. Luke Cage, Daredevil, Spidey, etc are typically written in stories that are grounded, down to earth, taking place on the streets. That's why the term street level applies to them. You could even write a street level story with someone like Superman, and as pointed out by paireon, there have been stories like that. We all know Superman's powers are anything but "street," but that doesn't change the nature of the story, or even the character. The nature of this thread is saying that labeling characters like Spider-Man and Luke Cage as "street level" is something that's wrong because their attributes put them above common everyday vigilantes. And if you're using "street level" as a term to mean common vigilante, then yeah, you'd definitely be right in that assertion, but the way I see it, and the way I believe it came to be in the first place, is that calling Spider-Man a street level character wasn't done so with his attributes in mind, but because those are the stories he's regularly a part of.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:26:03 GMT -5
And yeah, two great examples of mixing different power levels are The Avengers and JLA. Street level, middle levelers, powerhouses, cosmic level, whatever. They have it all.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 21:26:10 GMT -5
well said Ckal.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:30:32 GMT -5
Nexus we're not talking about 'street level' stories. We are talking about the street level classification of characters.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 21:31:29 GMT -5
And yeah, two great examples of mixing different power levels are The Avengers and JLA. Street level, middle levelers, powerhouses, cosmic level, whatever. They have it all. which in no way precludes them having a great story together. But let's not kid ourselves. Thor is not street level, neither is Superman.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 21:37:49 GMT -5
Nexus we're not talking about 'street level' stories. We are talking about the street level classification of characters. I understand that, but I feel that in doing that, you're losing the reason why characters like Spider-Man and Luke Cage are street level to begin with. You're borrowing a term used to describe a story to describe the protagonist of that story, and because if it you have a discrepancy of what it is/isn't, and who it should/shouldn't be. The only real solution to this is to come up with a more fitting term that gets rid of that discrepancy (similar to what Crom did, come to think of it, isn't that what those power rankings of Creator were for?).
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:39:25 GMT -5
Characters are referred to as street level constantly, even by Marvel execs. I'm not using the term inappropriately.
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 21:44:38 GMT -5
Characters are referred to as street level constantly, even by Marvel execs. I'm not using the term inappropriately. Yes, but why is the question that Crom was essentially asking in the OP. Why are Spider-Man and Luke Cage considered a street level characters when both their attributes put them above regular vigilante status? The answer is because of the stories they're regularly a part of. You're losing that answer when you focus solely on their physical attributes and abilities.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 21:58:07 GMT -5
What about characters like X-Man, Magneto, Jean Grey, Juggernaut, Hulk, Colossus, Iron Man, etc.? The list goes on with super powerful characters that have the majority of their stories take place at street level. Are they still street level characters?
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Post by paireon on Aug 9, 2011 22:09:25 GMT -5
1.You're not saying anything different that what you just said.Of course Spider-Man effortlessly takes care of common thugs..so does every other street leveler.There is no difference.Common thugs aren't a credible threat to any hero.Unless they sit there and get shot or hit they will always easily take down common thugs.ALWAYS.Unless they were already injured or handicapped in some way they always easily run through regular men.Any character that Spider-Man fights that he can repeatedly trash with minimal effort (including his rouges) will have the same outcome for other street levelers.Spider-Man being able to do it easier doesn't matter at all because the fact is those thugs aren't an actual threat for street levelers.Human characters use their skills to do what Spider-Man NEEDS powers to do but they are still doing the SAME things. Pot calling kettle black. You're repeating yourself too. And I don't see Captain America deadlifting cars. Besides, using your skills instead of powers to do something is a pretty good indicator of your power level. And while Hulk can blow up New York by punching it hard enough, a normal human could do the same with a nuclear bomb (like those suitcase nukes the Russians «lost track of» after the Cold War ) 2.Same thing with bullets.Bullets aren't any more of a threat to Daredevil than they are to Spider-Man.Daredevil has fought several gunman armed with semi-automatic weapons and not even been touched.Rarely does an unskilled gunman even graze Daredevil.However skilled gunman like the Punisher and Bullseye who have proven to be able to hit Daredevil have the same lack of difficulty hitting Spider-Man.His speed it irrelevant. Huh. Wasn't aware Spidey'd been tagged. When and by who? 3.Don't exaggerate what Spider-Man can do he doesn't sail over the threats of NYC.Every single character in his rouge gallery at some point has given him trouble..many have beaten him.They count as the threats of NYC because that's where they choose to do their crimes.So NO, Spider-Man does not saild through the threats in NYC.If you're simply talking about thugs and regular criminals then again human characters have no trouble with them either so you don't have a point. The trouble Spidey has with these guys tends to be due to crippling neuroses, insecurities and personal problems stemming from his everyday life, NOT from lack of ability to smack them around like ragdolls. And many who've beaten him are actually completely superhuman physically (like Rhino, who despite being a slummer and an idiot can credibly duke it out with The Thing for a minute or two) or are very smart and devious, which is the Great Equalizer (all street-levelers who manage staying relevant when confronted to higher-tier foes are like that) or a combination of the above (Green Goblin, anyone?). The point still stands. 4.You know that none of the threats in NYC are actually dangerous to Deadpool or Wolverine right? Are they not street level? (Insert picture of Phillips CDI Link laughing) HAHAHA OH WOW... You did NOT just go there! Marvel's two most overhyped, overestimated characters? Why not Squirrel Girl while you're at it? And anyways, nothing's an actual threat to these guys' lives unless it's cosmic-tier thanks to the ridiculous extent to which their healing factor works. And I think there was a storyline where Spidey stormed the X-mansion, with Wolverine being pretty much ineffective against him. 5.What a character should do and what they do, do are two different things.The fact that certain characters shouldn't tag Spider-Man is irrelevant.The fact is that those characters do and in turn they are allowed to keep up with the said character. I will refer you to my earlier response concerning the fact that frequent bad writing does not make it any less so. Also I shall refer to my above response: Spidey IIRC once stormed the X-mansion, which isn't exactly populated by puny mooks. He was only stopped by Prof. X's L33T M1ND H4XX0R 5K1LLZ, which is something he has no counter to. So your point can go both ways. 6.The comparison of a poodle to a grizzly bear is so far off.First off you're comparing two REAL animals.Second of all comics aren't created by realistic standards when it comes to any ability so you can't really argue what's realistic because that goes against was consistently happens in comics every day. What consistently happens in comics every day is inconsistencies, retcons, character wanks and arbitrary editor fiat. If we went just by that then any and all classifications would be moot anyways; but humans are creatures of habit, who like to classify and quantify, who see and create patterns everywhere. And so we even try to do it with unconscionnable clusterfucks like the DC and Marvel comic book universes.
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