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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 14:19:16 GMT -5
This is something that simply pisses me off: the definition of street level. Street level to me should not be defined by what level you operate but by your own power set. Spider-Man street level, Luke Cage, the Gorgon?! Fuck this shit! They aren't street level. Luke Cage can lift several tons over his head, walk head on into a line of machine guns and bitch slap those thugs like two dollar whores. He can fist fight things that can turn a human to goo with a flick of their thumb. Spider's attributes are so out of this world crazy compared to a human combined with his spider-sense, that armed gun-man are chump change to him. By all rights to his attributes he can rape Captain America. That's not street level. Street level is when guns, knives and things that cops should be careful with is dangerous to a character. Street level is when this gives you pause and might make you realized you are fucked: Edit: that's an army of ninjas, if that can't even slow you down. You're not street level.
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Post by Power NeXus on Aug 9, 2011 14:33:11 GMT -5
The definition of street level is, well,... undefined. It's very much up to opinion. However, the general concensus is usually that people like Spider-Man are pretty much the top tier of street level. If you don't agree with that, then that's your opinion. However, remembering that might help you stay on the same page with other people when talking about street levelers.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 14:38:23 GMT -5
The definition of street level is, well,... undefined. It's very much up to opinion. shuns to you and your being reasonable and calm, emu nexus. The boss Kangaroo is ranting However, the general concensus is usually that people like Spider-Man are pretty much the top tier of street level. If you don't agree with that, then that's your opinion. However, remembering that might help you stay on the same page with other people when talking about street levelers. To speak plainly, I understand this consensus. The point of my rant is this: this concensus needs to be trashed. It's terrible, it makes no sense, it's not actually conductive to debates. Spider-Man and Luke Cage might worry about street level problems, but these things are so beneath their abilities that they shouldn't have a label of Street level. My rant is that Street Level should be redefined by you power set, not you're concerns. Because I can't see how someone who's basically immune to anything under a bazooka (Luke Cage) could ever qualify as Street level.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 14:55:55 GMT -5
Spider-Man is typically considered the top of street level based on his attributes, but he is for the most part, the worst example of a street level character based on attributes because he is so far above most of them. My opinion is that Captain America would be the upper limit for street level defined characters based on attributes.
I understand the other opinion is that street levelers aren't based on attributes, rather than their rogues gallery. But then, it is still based on attributes.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 15:02:58 GMT -5
My opinion is that Captain America would be the upper limit for street level defined characters based on attributes. See that's sensible, Steve Rogers isn't immune to bullets. Guns are a credible weapon against him. That works. The upper most limit in my mind of what could be called in the most generous terms street level would be Deathstroke, and even he pushes the limit in my mind. I understand the other opinion is that street levelers aren't based on attributes, rather than their rogues gallery. But then, it is still based on attributes. When your gallery includes Sandman, a character that is anything but street level, I don't see how one can argue Spider-Man is street level.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 15:14:07 GMT -5
Well I agree on behalf of Spider-Man. But I think some people get confused with the term "street level." They see that Spider-Man is always fighting on the streets of NYC, so he is a street level character. By that logic, OK. But either the term street level is taken literally, as in above, or not literally, and is just a name with a different meaning.
What I take street level to mean, is that these characters are human. What they can do is feasibly in the range of what humans are capable of (stretching it a bit due to comic book standards). And for the most part, characters that don't possess super powers. Basically, people that really aren't enhanced beyond being human. Spider-Man is well beyond that range on both accounts.
But then what category does Spider-Man belong in? He's definitely not a powerhouse, so anywhere between street level and basically class 100 is the middle zone.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 15:15:54 GMT -5
Well I agree on behalf of Spider-Man. But I think some people get confused with the term "street level." They see that Spider-Man is always fighting on the streets of NYC, so he is a street level character. excellent further elaboration on my reasons why I think the term street level needs a serious redefining. What I take street level to mean, is that these characters are human. What they can do is feasibly in the range of what humans are capable of (stretching it a bit due to comic book standards). And for the most part, characters that don't possess super powers. Basically, people that really aren't enhanced beyond being human. Spider-Man is well beyond that range on both accounts. Exactly, spider-man is so above human he laughs at things humans endanger their lives facing.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 15:16:40 GMT -5
I just edited my previous post. Check it out.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 15:40:00 GMT -5
But then what category does Spider-Man belong in? He's definitely not a powerhouse, so anywhere between street level and basically class 100 is the middle zone. my take would be to add a different scale (further detailed and elaborated after discussion): Street level: Heroes at this level are human in their abilities or barely above human (even if extraordinary, being heroes). These are characters that are threatened by dangers that are deadly to cops, real world soldiers, and government officers. Guns kill them, super-powered things above that level crush them. They be incapacitated by mundance problems and threats. Real level deadly force is a danger to them Adept of power: A character on this level no longer has any reason to really fear street level mundane threats. They have abilities or gear that allows them to take on threat that can possibly do wide scale destruction. They can survive most street level threats with mundane ease without preparation. At this level a hero is one of the bigger fish in a city by sheer power. He's not one of the most powerful heroes on the planet. But he is a capable and deadly threat that street level capabilities would be hard pressed to seriously threaten Master of Power: A hero with this level of power is not threatened by street level anymore, at all. He is capable of taking on a powerful military force alone. His powers allow him to affect the landscape in devastating manners. When he flexes his muscles or uses his powers, humans will die if they get in the way. Given time and preparation, large scale death and destruction are perfectly within his abilities without any outside gear or amping of power Guardian of the World: A character at this level is one of the most powerful forces that is permanently "grounded" on the planet. He's powerful enough to stop armies alone. Masters of Power and adepts are beneath him. If they are to stop him, they'll need outside help or to at least gang up on him and fight tactically. Mundane threats are now, not even an after thought. He's concerned by super-powered enemies, invading aliens and giant super monsters. Anything less is not a problem for him. Guardian of the solar system: characters at this power level are protectors and powerful enough to travel to other planets. Threaten them alone. They have vast and advanced abilities to accomplish impossible feats. With a casual exertion of power, a city is just gone. However, a combined assault of Guardian level power can defeat them, if properly executed I'm not going to go above that on my scale. but with this ranking, Spider-Man would be a low-mid level adept of power
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 15:53:06 GMT -5
A street level character is anyone who handles "street level" threats on a regular basis.A street level villain is ANY characters that are in the rouge gallery of street level characters.
Spider-Man handles street level threats on a regular basis.How do I know that his rouge gallery is street level? Because other street levelers with no power pertaining to physical ability can beat them. (ex.Captain America,Moon Knight,Daredevil,Wolverine).
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 16:04:00 GMT -5
A street level character is anyone who handles "street level" threats on a regular basis.A street level villain is ANY characters that are in the rouge gallery of street level characters. Street level threats (rogues gallery), rogues gallery (street level threats)? Yes it is a circle. So what it depends on are the rogues. We both understand that street level means dealing with street level threats, but we just disagree on the characterization/description/meaning of the term 'street level.' Some of his rogues. Some of his haven't been beaten by these characters I'm sure.
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 16:04:13 GMT -5
Crom- I'll read your post in a bit.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 16:15:34 GMT -5
A street level character is anyone who handles "street level" threats on a regular basis.A street level villain is ANY characters that are in the rouge gallery of street level characters. Street level threats (rogues gallery), rogues gallery (street level threats)? Yes it is a circle. So what it depends on are the rogues. We both understand that street level means dealing with street level threats, but we just disagree on the characterization/description/meaning of the term 'street level.' Some of his rogues. Some of his haven't been beaten by these characters I'm sure. If not by them other characters that many would insist are street level.If we are basing it on power level I only feel you are outside of that bracket if in the instance that as a hero you have gone rouge it would take several super powered beings to take you down.For someone like Spider-Man if you even double up some of his rouges, without a plot device or some type of outstanding strategy he would get trashed.Someone like Iron Man,Ms.Marvel,Namor,The Hulk..characters I believe are outside of the street level bracket would easily run through Spider-Man's rouges.Most of them with only one attack.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 17:16:51 GMT -5
@ Caine: you're arguing the current definition of street level. We know what the definition is. The point is that it's a terrible one. Spider-Man's power sets means street level threats are not a credible threat to him. If he were written properly, Wolverine and Cap would not even lay a finger on him.
The argument is that street level should be defined by your power set. Not what you spend your time doing. Spidey's rogue gallery includes villains that street level simply has no way to stand a credible chance (sandman is an example).
That others are more powerful then Spiderman has 0 bearing on if he should be labeled street level, he shouldn't and others are more powerful then him. If anything it just further illustrates that a new labeling and scaling system is needed. Spider-man would be in the tier above street level. Iron man and others would be in different categories above Spideys
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 17:53:12 GMT -5
But then what category does Spider-Man belong in? He's definitely not a powerhouse, so anywhere between street level and basically class 100 is the middle zone. my take would be to add a different scale (further detailed and elaborated after discussion): Street level: Heroes at this level are human in their abilities or barely above human (even if extraordinary, being heroes). These are characters that are threatened by dangers that are deadly to cops, real world soldiers, and government officers. Guns kill them, super-powered things above that level crush them. They be incapacitated by mundance problems and threats. Real level deadly force is a danger to them Adept of power: A character on this level no longer has any reason to really fear street level mundane threats. They have abilities or gear that allows them to take on threat that can possibly do wide scale destruction. They can survive most street level threats with mundane ease without preparation. At this level a hero is one of the bigger fish in a city by sheer power. He's not one of the most powerful heroes on the planet. But he is a capable and deadly threat that street level capabilities would be hard pressed to seriously threaten Master of Power: A hero with this level of power is not threatened by street level anymore, at all. He is capable of taking on a powerful military force alone. His powers allow him to affect the landscape in devastating manners. When he flexes his muscles or uses his powers, humans will die if they get in the way. Given time and preparation, large scale death and destruction are perfectly within his abilities without any outside gear or amping of power Guardian of the World: A character at this level is one of the most powerful forces that is permanently "grounded" on the planet. He's powerful enough to stop armies alone. Masters of Power and adepts are beneath him. If they are to stop him, they'll need outside help or to at least gang up on him and fight tactically. Mundane threats are now, not even an after thought. He's concerned by super-powered enemies, invading aliens and giant super monsters. Anything less is not a problem for him. Guardian of the solar system: characters at this power level are protectors and powerful enough to travel to other planets. Threaten them alone. They have vast and advanced abilities to accomplish impossible feats. With a casual exertion of power, a city is just gone. However, a combined assault of Guardian level power can defeat them, if properly executed I'm not going to go above that on my scale. but with this ranking, Spider-Man would be a low-mid level adept of power I like this a lot. This is something I can get behind, all sexual jokes aside. I think the lines between power levels get too blurred sometimes, which makes it extremely hard me to continue to enjoy reading. Really showcasing the differences between the power levels of characters in a realistic way would make comics much more interesting and enjoyable IMO.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 17:55:49 GMT -5
I like this a lot. This is something I can get behind, all sexual jokes aside. I think the lines between power levels get too blurred sometimes, which makes it extremely hard me to continue to enjoy reading. Really showcasing the differences between the power levels of characters in a realistic way would make comics much more interesting and enjoyable IMO. I agree completely.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 17:56:44 GMT -5
@ Caine: you're arguing the current definition of street level. We know what the definition is. The point is that it's a terrible one. Spider-Man's power sets means street level threats are not a credible threat to him. If he were written properly, Wolverine and Cap would not even lay a finger on him. The argument is that street level should be defined by your power set. Not what you spend your time doing. Spidey's rogue gallery includes villains that street level simply has no way to stand a credible chance (sandman is an example). That others are more powerful then Spiderman has 0 bearing on if he should be labeled street level, he shouldn't and others are more powerful then him. If anything it just further illustrates that a new labeling and scaling system is needed. Spider-man would be in the tier above street level. Iron man and others would be in different categories above Spideys I'm not arguing the current definition.I'm simply saying that the current definition SHOULD stick.Trying to put Spider-Man outside of the box of other street levelers doesn't make any sense to me.I don't know what you mean by "Spider-Man's power sets means street level threats are not a credible threat to him." Because either in that description you are using a different definition of " street level" or what you're saying makes no sense. Spider-Man has all of the same weaknesses of normal\peak human characters and he shares villains with them so I'm not understanding why you're trying so hard to make Spider-Man and other street levelers separate.You said that Spider-Man has villains that no street leveler has a credible chance against; right? That doesn't make up the majority of his rouge gallery...not to mention the fact that Spider-Man himself doesn't even stand a credible chance against characters like Sandman,Hydro-Man,Venom or Carnage.Those characters are special cases.Every street leveler has A FEW villains that may be team-busters\above street level but that's still not what he fights on average.Spider-Man is a crime fighter.More than ANYTHING he's fought canon fodder.Ordinary street punks,Hydra agents,Hand Ninjas,Gangsters,Thugs etc.That's what Spider-Man fights on almost an issue by issue basis.That's why he's street level. The fact of the matter is the BULK of Spider-Man's rouge gallery is street level.Most of them he could take himself without help or a plot device or additional weaponry or prep to defeat them.Wolverine and Cap not being able to touch Spider-Man if he's written right has nothing to do with anything.There are characters faster than Spider-Man (Speed Demon for example) that are street level that would probably in a comic still be hit by Cap and Wolverine.Speed is NEVER written right in comics, so what's the point?
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 18:12:29 GMT -5
I'm simply saying that the current definition SHOULD stick. exactly what I said. You're arguing the current definition of the "Street level term" while the whole point of my thread is the current definition of the "street level" term needs to be changed because it's fucking ridiculousSpider-Man has all of the same weaknesses of normal\peak human characters and he shares villains with them so I'm not understanding why you're trying so hard to make Spider-Man and other street levelers separate. His power set means that armed thugs with 9mm are nothing to him. He can effortlessly kill humans without even coming close to hitting at full strength, move so fast that nobody with any realistically human physicals will have no chance to keep up. He has a super-sense that prevents him from falling ambush to things like snipers and such. Things that what an dangerous actual street level threat should be are near useless against. Him, armies of human ninjas? No problem for spidey There's nothing human level about him. The labeling of street level therefore doesn't work because street level by the very words that make up the term means things on the street. And gangsters, snipers, soldiers and cops are nothing for spidey. how is that hard to understand? Every street leveler has A FEW villains that may be team-busters\above street level but that's still not what he fights on average.Spider-Man is a crime fighter.More than ANYTHING he's fought canon fodder.Ordinary street punks,Hydra agents,Hand Ninjas,Gangsters,Thugs etc.That's what Spider-Man fights on almost an issue by issue basis.That's why he's street level. A characters regular opponents should be irrelevant to his label. His power level and what is a dangerous and regular credible threat should define is level. Thugs, ninjas and gangsters are not even a challenge for him. Therefore the term street level as it is currently used is both: 1-Non-sensical and improperly associated 2-does not apply to spider-man Street level as a term needs a new definition. One based on a character's power set and ability. Not based on his enemies (whom in the case of spidey are either beneath him and effortless for him to beat, or above his power level and therefore in even more of a need of better classification) The fact of the matter is the BULK of Spider-Man's rouge gallery is street level.Most of them he could take himself without help or a plot device or additional weaponry or prep to defeat them. Which is really, really wrong in my opinion. The term street level as it currently used, has nothing to do with what the words composing it mean, nor any logic to how it is used. Street level should mean a level where the things found on the street are a dangerous credible threat to you. This isn't the case for Spider-Man Street level needs to be redefined as a term, because at it's stand. The current definition is stupid. Wolverine and Cap not being able to touch Spider-Man if he's written right has nothing to do with anything. As the current definition stands yes. But it should, Captain America is much closer to human levels then Spider-Man, he's in a completely lower tier of power. One where human level threats can still pose a challenge. Therefore putting him in the same class as spider-man is ridiculous. There are characters faster than Spider-Man (Speed Demon for example) that are street level that would probably in a comic still be hit by Cap and Wolverine.Speed is NEVER written right in comics, so what's the point? Poor writing is not an excuse for more poor writing and labeling.
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 18:45:50 GMT -5
I'm simply saying that the current definition SHOULD stick. exactly what I said. You're arguing the current definition of the "Street level term" while the whole point of my thread is the current definition of the "street level" term needs to be changed because it's fucking ridiculousHis power set means that armed thugs with 9mm are nothing to him. He can effortlessly kill humans without even coming close to hitting at full strength, move so fast that nobody with any realistically human physicals will have no chance to keep up. He has a super-sense that prevents him from falling ambush to things like snipers and such. Things that what an dangerous actual street level threat should be are near useless against. Him, armies of human ninjas? No problem for spidey There's nothing human level about him. The labeling of street level therefore doesn't work because street level by the very words that make up the term means things on the street. And gangsters, snipers, soldiers and cops are nothing for spidey. how is that hard to understand? A characters regular opponents should be irrelevant to his label. His power level and what is a dangerous and regular credible threat should define is level. Thugs, ninjas and gangsters are not even a challenge for him. Therefore the term street level as it is currently used is both: 1-Non-sensical and improperly associated 2-does not apply to spider-man Street level as a term needs a new definition. One based on a character's power set and ability. Not based on his enemies (whom in the case of spidey are either beneath him and effortless for him to beat, or above his power level and therefore in even more of a need of better classification) Which is really, really wrong in my opinion. The term street level as it currently used, has nothing to do with what the words composing it mean, nor any logic to how it is used. Street level should mean a level where the things found on the street are a dangerous credible threat to you. This isn't the case for Spider-Man Street level needs to be redefined as a term, because at it's stand. The current definition is stupid. As the current definition stands yes. But it should, Captain America is much closer to human levels then Spider-Man, he's in a completely lower tier of power. One where human level threats can still pose a challenge. Therefore putting him in the same class as spider-man is ridiculous. There are characters faster than Spider-Man (Speed Demon for example) that are street level that would probably in a comic still be hit by Cap and Wolverine.Speed is NEVER written right in comics, so what's the point? Poor writing is not an excuse for more poor writing and labeling. 1.I don't see what makes the current definition of street leveler ridiculous.Especially when you're saying someone like Spider-Man is above that when he regularly takes care of common thugs. 2.Normal thugs with a 9mm are nothing for anyone else you consider to be below Spider-Man either.Characters who are peak human in most areas like Captain America,Daredevil,Moon Knight deal with ordinary thugs with guns without being hit by ANY bullets ALL the time.Fact of the matter is just like them if Spider-Man gets shot he will be hurt and in some cases he COULD die.So again..i'm not seeing how Spider-Man is so different.Also when you talk about Spider-sense there are characters who are normal humans\peak humans who have precognative abilities.Radar sense may eve be better in terms of knowing when someone is going to shoot.Daredevil has used it to dodge snipers so far ahead of time he's had time to alert other characters and get them out of the way. (Example. in v2 when he was sitting with Black Widow).So is Daredevil not street level or does Spider-Man's spider-sense only add to him not being street level since his speed is superhuman and Daredevil's is not..despite the fact it clearly allows them both to dodge bullets? 3.A characters opponents is the basis for what street level is because otherwise it defeats the purpose of the label.Spider-Man takes care of the streets of New York.That's it.(street level).Unless someone helps him or he's with the Avengers or some other grouping of heroes, he's not doing anything above and beyond that. 4.Whether the common criminal is a match for Spider-Man is besides the point i'm making because just like the instances you mentioned with the gun...they aren't any trouble for ANY character that calls themselves a costumed hero.Those characters are canon fodder to street levelers too.The fact of the matter is Spider-Man repeatedly deals with those type of characters. 5.Are you saying that being HUMAN makes you street level? Shouldn't you be ABOVE street level if STREET LEVELERS are no match for you? Whether you want to call it bad writing or not many characters that you would consider human\street level HAVE given Spider-Man trouble. 6.You can't call it bad writing when it happens in every case in which speed comes up.The idea of speed is distorted in all comics in general.You can't add what SHOULD be to a definition.This is simply how comics are written and always have been.
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Post by Prophet626 on Aug 9, 2011 19:07:16 GMT -5
I agree with just about everything Crom-Cruach has said.
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