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Post by paireon on Aug 9, 2011 22:19:27 GMT -5
Characters are referred to as street level constantly, even by Marvel execs. I'm not using the term inappropriately. Yes, but why is the question that Crom was essentially asking in the OP. Why are Spider-Man and Luke Cage considered a street level characters when both their attributes put them above regular vigilante status? The answer is because of the stories they're regularly a part of. You're losing that answer when you focus solely on their physical attributes and abilities. As I've said before, street-level stories and street-level characters are NOT the same thing. Just because you're in street-level stories doesn't mean you are street-level yourself (see my Spectre example), and the characters don't lose anything even if there's a difference as long as they're well-written. Of course, it turns to shite in the hands of hacks, but then what doesn't? |
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 22:20:40 GMT -5
What about characters like X-Man, Magneto, Jean Grey, Juggernaut, Hulk, Colossus, Iron Man, etc.? The list goes on with super powerful characters that have the majority of their stories take place at street level. Are they still street level characters? The majority of X-men stories don't take place on a street level. They have just as many cosmically insane reality bending threats too, just like other big name team books like Justice League and Avengers. Getting into more specific team books, a good bit of people look at the people in New Avengers as street level people. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spidey, Doc Strange, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, Jewel, blah blah. They all have majorly different levels of attributes, but all and all, they're known for being street level, not only because of their background, but because of how the book New Avengers was/is regularly written. On occasion, something major'll happen, but for the most part, it's been about them doin' their thing on a street level setting. Now let's take a look at another specific book. Incredible Hulk. Yes, that book's had it's fair share of street level stories, but not nearly as much as Amazing Spider-Man or even New Avengers The majority of Hulk's stories revolve around big epic fights, especially with Pak's writing. Anyway, as you said, the list goes on. Naturally every character you mentioned has had some stories with a street level setting, but let's face it, most "super powerful characters" have more stories revolving around them being "super" and "powerful" than they doing fighting crime on the streets. That's why they're not considered street level. |
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 22:33:48 GMT -5
What about characters like X-Man, Magneto, Jean Grey, Juggernaut, Hulk, Colossus, Iron Man, etc.? The list goes on with super powerful characters that have the majority of their stories take place at street level. Are they still street level characters? Because "street level" isn't about location it's about WHAT you're fighting.Juggernaut has fought the Hulk and Thor.It doesn't matter if it was in Times Square, those characters aren't street level threats.Thor is a planet buster he would f#ck NYC up.By street level threat I mean someone who isn't a team buster.Someone who can hold their own with the Avengers or some other hero team.It wouldn't take a team to take down Spider-Man's rouges One by One, Magneto is a team buster.He can take the X-men,Avengers etc. and pose a valid threat.I could keep going but I'm sure you get what i'm getting at. |
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 22:35:06 GMT -5
As I've said before, street-level stories and street-level characters are NOT the same thing. Just because you're in street-level stories doesn't mean you are street-level yourself (see my Spectre example), and the characters don't lose anything even if there's a difference as long as they're well-written. Of course, it turns to shite in the hands of hacks, but then what doesn't? No, they're not the same thing, but a street level character is a street level character because the majority of his stories are street level stories. Naturally, a writer can make a street level story with someone that isn't "street" and vice versa. It doesn't take one story or run by one author to automatically make someone like Spectre street level, just like it doesn't one outlandish feat that's utter PIS to make a character like Black Panther put Silver Surfer in an arm hold. Again, street level is a term used to describe the stories told. Characters who have a majority of their stories told like that tend to be considered street level themselves. Jackie Estacado is a street level character in spite of his powers being literally on a cosmic scale, but the only stories he's ever been a part of have all revolved around gangbanging. The Hood is also a street level character. Sure, he's had his 15 minutes of fame by fighting the Avengers at times, but the majority of his stories have all revolved around crime and the streets. The reason characters like Thor, Superman, and Hulk aren't street level is because most of their stories are about them punching giant monsters in the face. That's not something you'll find in a street level story. |
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Post by ckal on Aug 9, 2011 22:37:33 GMT -5
Nexus, you're really stretching here. The majority of the characters you listed on the New Avengers are street level characters because most of their stats are in a similar range.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 22:41:41 GMT -5
Nexus, you're really stretching here. The majority of the characters you listed on the New Avengers are street level characters because most of their stats are in a similar range. exactly. And a divorce of abilities from rankings because they're story are "street level" is facetious as best. Your example of Jackie Estacado is a great one. Jackie's worthwhile enemies are powerful demons, artifact wielders and magical entities. Those gangsters that constantly appear, they are nothing. Throwaways that matter zilch in the major events in Jackie's life (First Born, Artifacts, Broken Trinity). Those that matter are those that challenge and pit him to his limits, and in turn these people are not anything street level can realistically challenge (Sarah, Danielle, Tom Judge) It's a failure of logic to use setting as the measuring stick of a character's ranking. |
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 22:42:03 GMT -5
1.You're not saying anything different that what you just said.Of course Spider-Man effortlessly takes care of common thugs..so does every other street leveler.There is no difference.Common thugs aren't a credible threat to any hero.Unless they sit there and get shot or hit they will always easily take down common thugs.ALWAYS.Unless they were already injured or handicapped in some way they always easily run through regular men.Any character that Spider-Man fights that he can repeatedly trash with minimal effort (including his rouges) will have the same outcome for other street levelers.Spider-Man being able to do it easier doesn't matter at all because the fact is those thugs aren't an actual threat for street levelers.Human characters use their skills to do what Spider-Man NEEDS powers to do but they are still doing the SAME things. Pot calling kettle black. You're repeating yourself too. And I don't see Captain America deadlifting cars. Besides, using your skills instead of powers to do something is a pretty good indicator of your power level. And while Hulk can blow up New York by punching it hard enough, a normal human could do the same with a nuclear bomb (like those suitcase nukes the Russians «lost track of» after the Cold War  ) Huh. Wasn't aware Spidey'd been tagged. When and by who? The trouble Spidey has with these guys tends to be due to crippling neuroses, insecurities and personal problems stemming from his everyday life, NOT from lack of ability to smack them around like ragdolls. And many who've beaten him are actually completely superhuman physically (like Rhino, who despite being a slummer and an idiot can credibly duke it out with The Thing for a minute or two) or are very smart and devious, which is the Great Equalizer (all street-levelers who manage staying relevant when confronted to higher-tier foes are like that) or a combination of the above (Green Goblin, anyone?). The point still stands. (Insert picture of Phillips CDI Link laughing) HAHAHA OH WOW... You did NOT just go there! Marvel's two most overhyped, overestimated characters? Why not Squirrel Girl while you're at it? And anyways, nothing's an actual threat to these guys' lives unless it's cosmic-tier thanks to the ridiculous extent to which their healing factor works. And I think there was a storyline where Spidey stormed the X-mansion, with Wolverine being pretty much ineffective against him. I will refer you to my earlier response concerning the fact that frequent bad writing does not make it any less so. Also I shall refer to my above response: Spidey IIRC once stormed the X-mansion, which isn't exactly populated by puny mooks. He was only stopped by Prof. X's L33T M1ND H4XX0R 5K1LLZ, which is something he has no counter to. So your point can go both ways. 6.The comparison of a poodle to a grizzly bear is so far off.First off you're comparing two REAL animals.Second of all comics aren't created by realistic standards when it comes to any ability so you can't really argue what's realistic because that goes against was consistently happens in comics every day. What consistently happens in comics every day is inconsistencies, retcons, character wanks and arbitrary editor fiat. If we went just by that then any and all classifications would be moot anyways; but humans are creatures of habit, who like to classify and quantify, who see and create patterns everywhere. And so we even try to do it with unconscionnable clusterfucks like the DC and Marvel comic book universes. 1.How is that the pot calling the kettle black? How can I change what I said in response to something HE REPEATED? Your Hulk analogy about the Nuke and Hulk doesn't make any sense because i'm talking about what characters do with their own abilities not weapons. 2.Spider-Man has been hit by every street leveler he's ever fought.Everybody in his rouge gallery isn't superhuman and even some that are are still physically way under him and have still beaten him or given him trouble. 3.I don't see what being overhyped has to do with Wolverine and Deadpool's abilities or Squirrel Girl.Unlike her their showings pertain to their actual powers.Her's don't.She's a joke character.She is physically on Spider-Man's level.It has nothing to do with those characters regen though or my point.A gun would kill Spider-Man..not them. 4.Spider-Man's speed is what it is.Nobody is disputing it but I don't see what it has to do with anything.If Spider-Man keeps getting hit by peak humans then they can hit him.There's nothing you can do about it. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 22:45:33 GMT -5
2.Spider-Man has been hit by every street leveler he's ever fought.Everybody in his rouge gallery isn't superhuman and even some that are are still physically way under him and have still beaten him or given him trouble. 4.Spider-Man's speed is what it is.Nobody is disputing it but I don't see what it has to do with anything.If Spider-Man keeps getting hit by peak humans then they can hit him.There's nothing you can do about it. No it means writters don't understand what his powers mean or that they cast aside logic to entertain. It doesn't in any way make in logical, true or good writing. Someone with Spider-Man's attributes if he were written properly would smack around DD without breaking a sweat. There's no way around it. |
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 22:46:51 GMT -5
Nexus, you're really stretching here. The majority of the characters you listed on the New Avengers are street level characters because most of their stats are in a similar range. To quote a guy I know Luke Cage can lift several tons over his head, walk head on into a line of machine guns and bitch slap those thugs like two dollar whores. He can fist fight things that can turn a human to goo with a flick of their thumb. Spider's attributes are so out of this world crazy compared to a human combined with his spider-sense, that armed gun-man are chump change to him. By all rights to his attributes he can rape Captain America. And there's also Ms. Marvel, Doctor Strange, the Thing, and Squirrel Girl. I wouldn't call that stretching. Either way, you're missing the point again, and that is individually, the characters have a wide range of power attributes, from a guy who shoots arrows to a guy who is fluent in the mystic arts, but the team itself is considered street level in spite of that because of the stories they're a part of. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 22:48:06 GMT -5
but the team itself is considered street level in spite of that because of the stories they're a part of. which as the point of my thread is defending, should not be the case. It is illogical. Especially Doctor Strange, he's pimp slapped cosmics. |
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 22:49:31 GMT -5
2.Spider-Man has been hit by every street leveler he's ever fought.Everybody in his rouge gallery isn't superhuman and even some that are are still physically way under him and have still beaten him or given him trouble. 4.Spider-Man's speed is what it is.Nobody is disputing it but I don't see what it has to do with anything.If Spider-Man keeps getting hit by peak humans then they can hit him.There's nothing you can do about it. No it means writters don't understand what his powers mean or that they cast aside logic to entertain. It doesn't in any way make in logical, true or good writing. Someone with Spider-Man's attributes if he were written properly would smack around DD without breaking a sweat. There's no way around it. If doesn't matter only what actually happens.Spider-Man HAS never taken DD without breaking a sweat so that means he can't. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 22:52:39 GMT -5
If doesn't matter only what actually happens.Spider-Man HAS never taken DD without breaking a sweat so that means he can't. Wrong because your logic t leads to the BP/Silver surfer route you're basically arguing that because a writer says a character can do something, then he should logically be taken to be able to do so. |
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 22:58:20 GMT -5
If doesn't matter only what actually happens.Spider-Man HAS never taken DD without breaking a sweat so that means he can't. Wrong because your logic t leads to the BP/Silver surfer route you're basically arguing that because a writer says a character can do something, then he should logically be taken to be able to do so. That's not by my logic.I'm stating something that happens in pretty much every comic (consistent) as opposed to something that happened once and is clearly PIS.There are several things that happen in comics all the time that in a battle forums setting I wouldn't be able to argue because they ALWAYS happen.We're not arguing about realistic standards as opposed to what to happens in comics because if you want to do that then you object to EVERYTHING that happens in comics. |
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Post by NexusOfLight on Aug 9, 2011 23:01:39 GMT -5
Nexus, you're really stretching here. The majority of the characters you listed on the New Avengers are street level characters because most of their stats are in a similar range. exactly. And a divorce of abilities from rankings because they're story are "street level" is facetious as best. Your example of Jackie Estacado is a great one. Jackie's worthwhile enemies are powerful demons, artifact wielders and magical entities. Those gangsters that constantly appear, they are nothing. Throwaways that matter zilch in the major events in Jackie's life (First Born, Artifacts, Broken Trinity). Those that matter are those that challenge and pit him to his limits, and in turn these people are not anything street level can realistically challenge (Sarah, Danielle, Tom Judge) It's a failure of logic to use setting as the measuring stick of a character's ranking. How many major events has Jackie had that involved demons, artifact wielders, and magical entities? (You've named three, and those are the only three plus an occasional one that happens every ten or fifteen issues. I've been reading and following The Darkness just as much as you have.) Now how many of his stories revolve around him doing his "throwaway" stories? (You and I both know it's a lot more than three.) Like it or not, Jackie is very much a street level character in spite of his power set, because that is the only place his stories have led him. Now before you go any further, keep in mind, I'm not using his setting to rank him on the power scale. I was never doing that. I came into this thread specifically saying that you shouldn't do that, and it's for this reason right here. Jackie is a street level character because the vast majority of his stories are street level stories. That's where the term street level came from. That's why we have characters like Spider-Man, the Hood, Luke Cage, and Jackie labeled as "street level." It has nothing to do with their power ranking, because if it did, then none of them would be considered street level, but the fact of the matter is they all are, and it's for this reason I've been trying to tell you this entire time. It all boils down to their stories. That's what comics as a whole boil down to. If you don't like the reason or the term, you should definitely implement a different term with a more precise meaning, much like what you mentioned on the first page of this thread. That's the only solution that I can see to get what you want. |
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 9, 2011 23:08:55 GMT -5
If doesn't matter only what actually happens.Spider-Man HAS never taken DD without breaking a sweat so that means he can't. Wrong because your logic t leads to the BP/Silver surfer route you're basically arguing that because a writer says a character can do something, then he should logically be taken to be able to do so. Right. Consistency equals credibility. If Spider-Man cannot easily fight against Daredevil, Captain America, Wolverine, etc, etc, etc, then it is only logical to assume that he cannot. You cannot fault the writers for writing a story that is in-character just because you think Spider-Man SHOULD clean house. He obviously cannot against these opponents. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:12:52 GMT -5
There are several things that happen in comics all the time that in a battle forums setting I wouldn't be able to argue because they ALWAYS happen.We're not arguing about realistic standards as opposed to what to happens in comics because if you want to do that then you object to EVERYTHING that happens in comics. Not really, suspension of disbelief and a certain standard of realism/versus fantasy. Allow for fantastic stories without objection that they are fantastic. But marvel is supposed to be set in a world where the laws of force, physics and such are roughly the same as our world. And within this regard, suspension of disbelief and what is acceptable as good writing if fantastic needs a limit, what doesn't respect it should not be accepted as good writing, quite the contrary. And Spider-Man is a prominent case of this because his attributes put us in a position, where no actual street leveler should be anything of a challenge for him. Thus he should not be considered street level, regardless of where his stories are set.
NexusOfLight: I am trying to implement a new terminology, that is the point of this thread. I have an entire post on suggested rankings. |
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Killshot Caine
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 23:16:55 GMT -5
There are several things that happen in comics all the time that in a battle forums setting I wouldn't be able to argue because they ALWAYS happen.We're not arguing about realistic standards as opposed to what to happens in comics because if you want to do that then you object to EVERYTHING that happens in comics. Not really, suspension of disbelief and a certain standard of realism/versus fantasy. Allow for fantastic stories without objection that they are fantastic. But marvel is supposed to be set in a world where the laws of force, physics and such are roughly the same as our world. And within this regard, suspension of disbelief and what is acceptable as good writing if fantastic needs a limit, what doesn't respect it should not be accepted as good writing, quite the contrary. And Spider-Man is a prominent case of this because his attributes put us in a position, where no actual street leveler should be anything of a challenge for him. Thus he should not be considered street level, regardless of where his stories are set.
NexusOfLight: I am trying to implement a new terminology, that is the point of this thread. I have an entire post on suggested rankings. Again..what Marvel is SUPPOSED to be and what Marvel IS are two different things.They choose to write their comics that way therefore what happens in comics is what it is.You wouldn't go into battle forums and say logically Spider-Man wouldn't be touched by Cap or DD because he's too fast unless it was something that didn't pertain to the argument.Something you were just saying to be saying, because it's happened far too many times for you to argue with it. |
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:17:12 GMT -5
Right. Consistency equals credibility. If Spider-Man cannot easily fight against Daredevil, Captain America, Wolverine, etc, etc, etc, then it is only logical to assume that he cannot. You cannot fault the writers for writing a story that is in-character just because you think Spider-Man SHOULD clean house. He obviously cannot against these opponents. Except his outlandishly superior feats and attributes, which all the good writers agree he has, should not ever put him this position. One of the key problems with Spider-Man is that there is a near complete divorce between what his agreed upon powerset is, and what writers show him doing with them against street levelers. It bespeaks of jobbing him to make an inferior (physically speaking) character look good rather then actually showing him acting at the level his agreed upon abilities should allow him to. And with this in mind, those agreed upon abilities are so far above human level that it is ridiculous to label him street level. |
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 9, 2011 23:21:20 GMT -5
Right. Consistency equals credibility. If Spider-Man cannot easily fight against Daredevil, Captain America, Wolverine, etc, etc, etc, then it is only logical to assume that he cannot. You cannot fault the writers for writing a story that is in-character just because you think Spider-Man SHOULD clean house. He obviously cannot against these opponents. Except his outlandishly superior feats and attributes, which all the good writers agree he has, should not ever put him this position. One of the key problems with Spider-Man is that there is a near complete divorce between what his agreed upon powerset is, and what writers show him doing with them against street levelers. It bespeaks of jobbing him to make an inferior (physically speaking) character look good rather then actually showing him acting at the level his agreed upon abilities should allow him to. And with this in mind, those agreed upon abilities are so far above human level that it is ridiculous to label him street level. I do not know of a single battle where Spider-Man had it easy with one of the aforementioned opponents. His speed is a factor in every battle but so is his CIS. And if we are being realistic, Spider-Man wins a lot of times through dumb luck or through a moment of enlightenment. He just is a terrible fighter against someone that is not a random Joe Blow with a knife. Against someone who is credible. |
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 9, 2011 23:23:14 GMT -5
You know what.I don't care anymore.
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