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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:32:36 GMT -5
I do not know of a single battle where Spider-Man had it easy with one of the aforementioned opponents. He just is a terrible fighter against someone that is not a random Joe Blow with a knife. Against someone who is credible. I do not dispute how he is written or has been written constantly against the aforementioned opponents What I'm disputing is whether it should ever happen this way. Spider-Man may not be very skilled, but he is smart. And more importantly he's so superior physically to them it's not even funny. Peter can lift 10-15 tons, he's at the bare least 5 times faster in movement speed and reaction time to even the most peak of humans (since this is the proportional difference between the movement speed of a human and even the slowest hunting spiders, and the difference in reaction time). Even wolverine who is scary fast should have a very tough time landing hits on him. Spider-man is at least 2 to 2.5 times faster then him. This leads me to believe there is a total disconnect between his power set and how he is written against other characters whom are actually street level as I see it. His speed is a factor in every battle but so is his CIS. He just is a terrible fighter against someone that is not a random Joe Blow with a knife. Against someone who is credible. Peter isn't an idiot, he's been in a lot of fights. There's a limit on how incompetent someone needs to be to loose against characters with a gulf in attributes so wide as his with say DD and still remain believable.
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 9, 2011 23:37:39 GMT -5
Spider-Man is not an idiot but his genius is not really applicable on the battlefield. He himself has stated that he relies heavily on letting his spider sense do ALL the work for him. In other words, in most cases, his body is running on autopilot.
He has been in lots of fights but that does not change the fact that most of the wins were lucky wins or unusual cases, like suddenly discovering a weakness or talking his way out of a fight or some thing along those lines.
Doc Ock is an incredible threat to Spider-Man. A man with absolutely no powers at all. Just mechanical arms that while fast, react at the command of very human thoughts.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:44:12 GMT -5
Spider-Man is not an idiot but his genius is not really applicable on the battlefield. He himself has stated that he relies heavily on letting his spider sense do ALL the work for him. In other words, in most cases, his body is running on autopilot. which, when it comes to insects and arachnids is not at all an impediment to their reaction and effectiveness giving that it's hardwired in how they work. With the massive gulf in physical attributes he has compared to others also labeled "street levelers" he should not have trouble fighting them. He has been in lots of fights but that does not change the fact that most of the wins were lucky wins or unusual cases, like suddenly discovering a weakness or talking his way out of a fight or some thing along those lines. I understand and do not dispute how he has been written. I'm simply in a state of utter unsatisfaction and disbelief that it is good writing for it to happen that way. Especially constantly. You'd expect that he would gain some skill to go with his powers over the years through sheer experience. I'm all the more in disbelief after seeing scans from Grim hunt where Spidey lays waste easily to Kraven and his brood in a visual depiction that gives the impression it was nearly effortless. Why doesn't he always perform at this level? Or his bitch slapping of Wilson Fisk whom can be a credible opponent to DD? Doc Ock is an incredible threat to Spider-Man. A man with absolutely no powers at all. Just mechanical arms that while fast, react at the command of very human thoughts. Of course he is, and his mechanical arms because of the abilities they grant him put him above street level. He can easily manhandle super-humans with them. Especially the adamantium arms. I don't understand what you mean here, it seems to further defend my point.
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Post by Sherlock Laforet on Aug 9, 2011 23:47:08 GMT -5
WOW this is more heated than the battle threads
Im Siding with Crom though
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:48:48 GMT -5
WOW this is more heated than the battle threads Im Siding with Crom though I'm trying not to sound douchy and debate my point logically and respectfully. I'm also sad to see Caine dropping off like he did and appogize if he feels insulted or otherwise disrespected. Such was not at all my intention. I just want a clean open discussion.
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Post by Sherlock Laforet on Aug 9, 2011 23:51:58 GMT -5
WOW this is more heated than the battle threads Im Siding with Crom though I'm trying not to sound douchy and debate my point logically and respectfully. I'm also sad to see Caine dropping off like he did and appogize if he feels insulted or otherwise disrespected. Such was not at all my intention. I just want a clean open discussion. Thats exactly why i wowed it.None of what you said seemed disrespectful to me anyway.Though im sure they had a point to their post im not sure what it was.If you werent getting it then i could see them getting angry
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 9, 2011 23:56:08 GMT -5
Though im sure they had a point to their post im not sure what it was.If you werent getting it then i could see them getting angry they did, and I understood it. Just so we're clear: @everyone who has posted and may post in this thread: Even if I disagree with you, I respect you and your positions.
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Post by Sherlock Laforet on Aug 10, 2011 0:06:37 GMT -5
Though im sure they had a point to their post im not sure what it was.If you werent getting it then i could see them getting angry they did, and I understood it. Well im at a bit of a loss then
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 10, 2011 0:11:18 GMT -5
Well im at a bit of a loss then I as well.
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 10, 2011 9:44:20 GMT -5
Spider-Man is not an idiot but his genius is not really applicable on the battlefield. He himself has stated that he relies heavily on letting his spider sense do ALL the work for him. In other words, in most cases, his body is running on autopilot. which, when it comes to insects and arachnids is not at all an impediment to their reaction and effectiveness giving that it's hardwired in how they work. With the massive gulf in physical attributes he has compared to others also labeled "street levelers" he should not have trouble fighting them. I understand and do not dispute how he has been written. I'm simply in a state of utter unsatisfaction and disbelief that it is good writing for it to happen that way. Especially constantly. You'd expect that he would gain some skill to go with his powers over the years through sheer experience. I'm all the more in disbelief after seeing scans from Grim hunt where Spidey lays waste easily to Kraven and his brood in a visual depiction that gives the impression it was nearly effortless. Why doesn't he always perform at this level? Or his bitch slapping of Wilson Fisk whom can be a credible opponent to DD? Doc Ock is an incredible threat to Spider-Man. A man with absolutely no powers at all. Just mechanical arms that while fast, react at the command of very human thoughts. Of course he is, and his mechanical arms because of the abilities they grant him put him above street level. He can easily manhandle super-humans with them. Especially the adamantium arms. I don't understand what you mean here, it seems to further defend my point. How can Spider-Man gain any experience whatsoever when he is letting his autopilot do all the work while he spends all his energy thinking about his next joke? Doc Ock is street leveler. Do you think Iron Man would have any trouble at all taking him out? Hell no. Hulk? Not a problem. The fight with Doc and BanerHulk was terrible writing even with adamantium arms. Doc stands no chance against anyone that is above street leveler so I have no idea how it furthers your argument. In fact, one well placed punch to the head by a human can end Doc permanently in his current state.
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Post by Admin on Aug 10, 2011 10:01:03 GMT -5
***This is based on the OP and not the current debate (which I haven't read)***
I agree the general term for street level (in terms of power) is rather flawed. We tend to consider Spider-Man the "peak" for this category, yet he's physically leagues above the others. There shouldn't be such a significant gap in such a low level category, and I'm actually glad this thread is (hopefully) renewing interest in the definition. Personally, in terms of power levels, I think enhanced across the board should be the upper limit of "street level," and beyond that something like "low-level superhuman" or something along those lines.
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Post by ckal on Aug 10, 2011 10:04:13 GMT -5
Doc Ock is street leveler. Do you think Iron Man would have any trouble at all taking him out? Hell no. Hulk? Not a problem. The fight with Doc and BanerHulk was terrible writing even with adamantium arms. Doc stands no chance against anyone that is above street leveler so I have no idea how it furthers your argument. In fact, one well placed punch to the head by a human can end Doc permanently in his current state. Of course Doc Ock isn't a threat to Iron Man or Hulk who are power houses (even though Doc kinda took it to Iron Man in that recent story arc. don't worry it was PIS ) Doc Ock is a character that makes no sense at all that he is alive. How is his face no turned into mush after Spider-Man punches him even once 40 years ago? Does he have some sort of hidden durability amp that I'm not aware of? Spider-Man is for the most part, so far above most other street levelers, that our point is we would like to see him classified in a different category.
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Post by Erik-El on Aug 10, 2011 10:07:44 GMT -5
Well I do not really think that keeping Tony from taking action against him to be PIS. But if Tony wanted to, Doc would have been dead in a second.
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Post by ckal on Aug 10, 2011 10:10:47 GMT -5
Nexus, you're really stretching here. The majority of the characters you listed on the New Avengers are street level characters because most of their stats are in a similar range. To quote a guy I know Luke Cage can lift several tons over his head, walk head on into a line of machine guns and bitch slap those thugs like two dollar whores. He can fist fight things that can turn a human to goo with a flick of their thumb. Spider's attributes are so out of this world crazy compared to a human combined with his spider-sense, that armed gun-man are chump change to him. By all rights to his attributes he can rape Captain America. And there's also Ms. Marvel, Doctor Strange, the Thing, and Squirrel Girl. I wouldn't call that stretching. Either way, you're missing the point again, and that is individually, the characters have a wide range of power attributes, from a guy who shoots arrows to a guy who is fluent in the mystic arts, but the team itself is considered street level in spite of that because of the stories they're a part of. Lol, no. That's why I said most of the characters you listed, not all. They are not all considered street level. They are looked at as more of a street level team because of the characters on their roster. They have a good deal of street levelers, including Spider-Man and Luke Cage. Doctor Strange is a shell of what he used to be, I'm not even sure what to classify him as. Then you got your powerhouses of the team, Thing and somewhat Ms. Marvel. Look at the entire first arc of the new volume. They were fighting demons and magical abstracts. That's not a street level story. Now they are in a street level story because they're fighting Hydra or AIM or whatever it is, I can't remember.
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Post by ckal on Aug 10, 2011 10:17:06 GMT -5
Well I do not really think that keeping Tony from taking action against him to be PIS. But if Tony wanted to, Doc would have been dead in a second. He got thrashed around by Doc because he could only make a suit that was very thin so he didn't set off the 'device' with the suits' arc energy emissions. It's not that he didn't want to, but thought he couldn't. You're right its not PIS but due to the story, Doc was able to beat him up.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Aug 10, 2011 13:45:56 GMT -5
Spider-Man is for the most part, so far above most other street levelers, that our point is we would like to see him classified in a different category. this and I'd go further as to add a new category needs to be added between actual street level, one where spidey operates, and the higher tier. Anything above Captain America should be beyond street level in my opinion.
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Killshot Caine
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
You Just Mad Cuz i'm Stylin On you!
Posts: 5,732
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Post by Killshot Caine on Aug 10, 2011 13:52:18 GMT -5
I'm still calling Spider-Man street level.
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Post by ckal on Aug 10, 2011 14:00:07 GMT -5
I'm still calling Spider-Man street level. Of course you are. We all are. That is his current definition. We just believe he should be in a separate, higher tier, along with the likes of Luke Cage, Gorgon, etc. We're not proposing they shouldn't have street level stories, just that they be classified in a group one step above.
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Post by Admin on Aug 10, 2011 14:13:21 GMT -5
Personally, I've never viewed Luke Cage as street level.
But yeah, like I said in my other post, I support the notion of anything over enhanced = not "street level."
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Silver
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
The Fourth Precept
Posts: 4,654
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Post by Silver on Aug 10, 2011 14:21:42 GMT -5
If I am being honest, I always defined street level by power level. Cage to me was never street level. Spider-Man borders on breaking through to the next tier.
I only skimmed the debate though; so I may come back later and address points more thoroughly.
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