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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Sept 27, 2011 16:10:58 GMT -5
Here is the problem with a government setting up a quarantine. They have to know there is an outbreak first. At first it would only seems like a few random acts of violence peppered across the country. Then it snowballs with lightning speed. The reason why it spreads so fast is because in today's world, we have the convenience of travel speed. Would you quarentine a state or city off if there was a bar fight in one section and some John Doe attacking people in the streets? No of course not. Then there is the fact that most of these people do not go to hospitals immediately after said attack or fight unless the injury is serious. Someone scratches you in a fight, you do not go to the hospital. You go about your life as if nothing happens. Sometimes that means catching a flight to some other part of the world. Then bam, you are comatose in hours and you die either in the privacy of your lodgings or you manage to make in into a hospital. Both are great places to spread the zombification. In a hospital when people die, they are not immediately shuttled down to the morgue in most cases. A hospital is an extremely busy place. Sometimes it takes hours. But if someone does come back postmortem and are violent, nurses, orderlies and doctors jump in to restrain. That puts them at risk. There is no reason to suspect that someone that is violent is a zombie. These would look coincidental until it is far too big for a government to step in and control. Especially when this would travel extremely fast. But then there is The Walking Dead's take on it as we are all already infected. Well then there is no help at all. Not only would we be dealing with the killed coming back, but we would have to worry about those coming back who were not bitten or scratched at all. People that died of dysentery would be rushing at you with shit all over themselves and your very last thought would be that they are a zombie. None of this changes the fact that blood transfer is a horrible way to spread a disease. You cannot, in your wildest dreams, infect as many people by biting/wounding/scratching them, as you could with an airborne virus. The fact that governments CAN quarantine and curb the spread of airborne viruses means they can very well cut any zombie outbreak at its roots if it pops up. Also, if I am attacked by an undead shambling corpse, you bet your ass I'm NOT going to go traveling around the world. I'm going to go to a hospital and get a check up. And I probably wouldn't have a choice about it, either. Also, you're overestimating the potency of international travel. We've had birds fly, SARS, pigs fly and a few other diseases which had the potential to be pandemics, but there were plenty parts of the world which didn't even have a single case of them. There's no reason to think a zombie outbreak would spread any better. Granted I haven't watched Walking Dead and their way seems pretty damn deadly, but that just goes back to my point that zombies aren't really clearly defined or anything,
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 17:17:03 GMT -5
That is not necessarily true. The benefits of airborne vs through blood are obvious but again, you are operating under the assumption that Uncle Sam will hop on the situation the moment it arises. I can guarantee you that he will not. The government never gets involved in curbing the spread of a disease until it already is a pandemic. If a zombie infection was to arise, the government would do jack shit until it became incredibly obvious that the lower stages of government was incapable of holding it back. You are giving way too much credit to the ability of the government. Organizing supplies that should have already been available to people in need is far and away easier than preventing the spreading of a disease that gives no symptoms until right before it kills you. Fuck the government can barely handle the bird flu and that is not even a disease that is really as bad as the media made it out to be.
And again, you have no way of knowing if the person that attacked you is undead unless they are displaying some radical amounts of damage. Not all zombies are like that and even if you did get blitzed by a zombie missing two arms, a lower jaw, all its internal organs and a foot and you went to a hospital with a story like that, you would likely be sedated for being a crazy or they just would not believe you because they would likely think you are in shock. Furthermore, people rarely get treated for human bites, despite the fact that HBI's are one of the most diseased kind of bites in a 1st world country. Getting bitten by a dog or a cat is less likely to cause you harm.
As for your list of diseases that never made pandemic status, I reference you up to my above paragraph. These diseases were largely exaggerated. THAT is why they never made it to pandemic status, not because the government stepped in and saved our asses. They did almost nothing about it at all.
Here is a list of diseases that the government could take care of and are actually lethal to certain groups of people, kill several thousand people every year and the government does nothing substantial about them:
HIV Nasopharyngitis (the cold virus) Influenza A virus (the common flu) Hepatitis B Hepatitis C Tuberculosis (which has already infected 1/3 of the planet.... That means you or someone you love likely has it and does not even know it) Malaria
All these kill hundreds of thousands to millions every year and nothing is directly being done about them at all by the governments and these are not even all of the serious and common infectious diseases. I just got bored once I felt I made my point.
In closing, the governments will not save you in a crisis like this. It would be impossible to spread the armies out to enforce martial law effectively. The mobilization would take too long and the forces spread too thin. Not to mention that these military types would not likely know that these things are undead. They would not know that anything short of severe brain trauma would kill them. At least not at first. And there is no way in hell that a platoon of men will roll in and successfully take down an entire city of undead. That is just not being realistic. It is far more likely that all the major cities would be firebombed. And that would still not take care of the potentially infected that jumped ship once things got heavy.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 17:31:05 GMT -5
So, basically we're all screwed if zombies were real?
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 17:32:29 GMT -5
So, basically we're all screwed if zombies were real? Not necessarily. But I think some people are putting way too much stock in the government bailing us out when they fall flat on their asses almost every time there is a crisis.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 17:34:42 GMT -5
If there was a Zombie Apolalypse that starts in the USA or anywhere else, I'd imagine most other countries would close their borders.
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 17:37:10 GMT -5
I think they would try to do that as well. But here is the rub: by the time it becomes apparent that this is a pandemic, there is at least one infected in every major country in the world. AND if it is something like The Walking Dead where everyone is already infected due to what is likely an airborne virus, closing the borders would just waste monumental amounts of time and resources.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 17:42:27 GMT -5
I'd like to watch The Walking Dead, but it isn't on in Australia.
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 17:49:53 GMT -5
You should be reading the comic while you wait for it to be released on DVD.
I will not be buying the television series though. 6 episodes are as much as any normal series of 12-18 episodes. It is ridiculous.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Sept 27, 2011 18:12:48 GMT -5
That is not necessarily true. The benefits of airborne vs through blood are obvious but again, you are operating under the assumption that Uncle Sam will hop on the situation the moment it arises. I can guarantee you that he will not. The government never gets involved in curbing the spread of a disease until it already is a pandemic. If a zombie infection was to arise, the government would do jack shit until it became incredibly obvious that the lower stages of government was incapable of holding it back. You are giving way too much credit to the ability of the government. Organizing supplies that should have already been available to people in need is far and away easier than preventing the spreading of a disease that gives no symptoms until right before it kills you. Fuck the government can barely handle the bird flu and that is not even a disease that is really as bad as the media made it out to be. Your assumption, on the other hand, is that infectious diseases have a huge neon signs above their heads saying "I'M DEADLY! SHOOT ME NOW!" If any infection were to arise, no one would do anything until it became obvious. That's pretty evident. Despite that, disease controls remain pretty successful in not making pandemics happen. Organizing supplies, on the other hand, isn't just gathering up a bunch of stuff and dropping them on the refugees or whatever. It involves highly complex logistics trains which can be screwed up rather easily. It's easier to set up a quarantine on anything than to set up a proper supply train. Besides, the Katrina tragedy is specifically a failure of the US (and, if I'm not mistaken, blamed largely on Bush). There were other such instances, like Japan's tsunami catastrophe, which were handled much better. Your mileage may wary. Most zombie movies I've seen (and I admit there haven't been that many)had them shambling around with bleached eyes and bad skin shouting "BRAAAAAAAIIIIINSSSSSS..." That tends to be fairly noticeable. I've yet to see a zombie "blend with the population or anything. Out of all of those, wikipedia lists only HIV as a pandemic. Seasonal flu and common cold are not deadly and high level containment is unnecessary. Malaria has been all but eradicated in the west. Less so for Tuberculosis, but still it is far from being a serious problem. (and I am, of course, talking about countries which actually have the infrastructure and institutions to deal with stuff like these. I'm not talking about Zambia or Kongo here). HIV, Hepatits B and C are all problematic in that it takes years or decades for the symptoms to actually manifest (and mind that Hepatitis is not considered pandemical), and detecting the disease before the symptoms manifest themselves is very difficult, making effective quarantine all but impossible. None of this would be the case with a zombie outbreak. And hell, let's not forget that HIV has been building it's way to pandemic for what, 50 years now? Hepatitis has been around for centuries. As for Influenzas and SARS being exaggerated, it doesn't matter. SARS, at least, would most certainly spread faster than a zombie plague, being an actual human to human transmitted virus. The fact that it only achieved 8,500 infections worldwide is an argument against a zombie outbreak in itself. The point being: governments don't have to be some supercompetent entities and shit. The zombie plague is useless enough on its own to give them a fair chance.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 18:12:54 GMT -5
Does the TV series follow the comics pretty well?
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 18:18:44 GMT -5
Does the TV series follow the comics pretty well? Kind of. It is different in ways that makes it more Hollywood and has scenes the comic never has. I personally think the comic is more realistic than the show.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 18:38:24 GMT -5
Does the main character still lose his one of his arms and his eyes?
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 18:48:39 GMT -5
Phantom Stargrave: 1) I never said that about infectious disease. I think you mistook someone else's argument for mine because my entire stance is that no one would know what this is until it is too late. Not just the government. So I have no idea where this "I'M DEADLY! SHOOT ME NOW!" thing is coming from. 2) They are able to prevent these things from becoming pandemics because A) there are vaccinations for some of these and B) these are not nearly as bad as a zombie virus would be. 3) Normally it would be difficult to set up a quarantine with semi-cooperative citizens. It would be god damn impossible to quarantine hundreds of infected blitzing the quarantine line. 4) Japan was handled better for several reasons. There was global coordination and cooperation, providing various resources. That and Japan is just better than everyone. 5) Oh come on. Blend in? Now you are just trying to be difficult. Classic zombie movies are stupid. In one, a zombie tried to convince a group of people to come to its location through a ham radio. We can leave the ridiculous out of this. In reality, it takes a while for a dead human to look any different than a live one if we factor out injury. Eyes do not really turn white postmortem. It is a film that develops over the eye that takes several hours to become visible due to less fluids and a lack of blinking to clean the eye. In any case, it is not an indicator that someone is dead by itself. Old people often have this very same condition while they are alive because of lack of circulation and blinking. 6) I never said that any of those are pandemics. I said they are common and lethal diseases that the government COULD do something about but does not. Yes the cold and flu are deadly. Just not to young to middle age adults. Look them up. Again, TB has already infected 1/3 of the global human populace. I would say that is a problem. You are right about it being difficult to quarantine a disease that is mainly asymptomatic. It just so happens that these zombie viruses are just that kind of infection. It is asymptomatic right up until a few minutes before it kills you in most cases. So by your own admission, this disease would be hard to quarantine. 7) SARS is not a good example as proof that a zombie pandemic would grind itself out. Transmitting of the disease is completely different. When you have a disease that causes people to not only becomes hosts for the disease but actively try to transmit disease, then you have a comparable example. You forget that zombies are not just going to sit around coughing disease onto their hands and go in for a handshake unknowingly infecting others. They are going to tirelessly chase down every single person they see for a bite or scratch. No disease out there is comparable.
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 18:49:09 GMT -5
Does the main character still lose his one of his arms and his eyes? I will not be giving away details unless you have no intention of watching the show.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 19:21:11 GMT -5
Ah, fair enough. I'll be sure to watch it eventually.
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Sept 27, 2011 19:40:50 GMT -5
Phantom Stargrave: 1) I never said that about infectious disease. I think you mistook someone else's argument for mine because my entire stance is that no one would know what this is until it is too late. Not just the government. So I have no idea where this "I'M DEADLY! SHOOT ME NOW!" thing is coming from. 2) They are able to prevent these things from becoming pandemics because A) there are vaccinations for some of these and B) these are not nearly as bad as a zombie virus would be. 3) Normally it would be difficult to set up a quarantine with semi-cooperative citizens. It would be god damn impossible to quarantine hundreds of infected blitzing the quarantine line. 4) Japan was handled better for several reasons. There was global coordination and cooperation, providing various resources. That and Japan is just better than everyone. 5) Oh come on. Blend in? Now you are just trying to be difficult. Classic zombie movies are stupid. In one, a zombie tried to convince a group of people to come to its location through a ham radio. We can leave the ridiculous out of this. In reality, it takes a while for a dead human to look any different than a live one if we factor out injury. Eyes do not really turn white postmortem. It is a film that develops over the eye that takes several hours to become visible due to less fluids and a lack of blinking to clean the eye. In any case, it is not an indicator that someone is dead by itself. Old people often have this very same condition while they are alive because of lack of circulation and blinking. 6) I never said that any of those are pandemics. I said they are common and lethal diseases that the government COULD do something about but does not. Yes the cold and flu are deadly. Just not to young to middle age adults. Look them up. Again, TB has already infected 1/3 of the global human populace. I would say that is a problem. You are right about it being difficult to quarantine a disease that is mainly asymptomatic. It just so happens that these zombie viruses are just that kind of infection. It is asymptomatic right up until a few minutes before it kills you in most cases. So by your own admission, this disease would be hard to quarantine. 7) SARS is not a good example as proof that a zombie pandemic would grind itself out. Transmitting of the disease is completely different. When you have a disease that causes people to not only becomes hosts for the disease but actively try to transmit disease, then you have a comparable example. You forget that zombies are not just going to sit around coughing disease onto their hands and go in for a handshake unknowingly infecting others. They are going to tirelessly chase down every single person they see for a bite or scratch. No disease out there is comparable. 1) No, you said that no one would react until it's obvious shit is hitting the fan. Which is how most pandemics happen. The fact that we still have abilities to deal with them even at that stages suggests zombies would not be insumountable. 2) In modern day, pandemics are also manageable by simply cutting any travel lines between infected and uninfected areas. 3) No, quarantining zombies would be easier. Citizens? You still need to make sure they're okay and all. Zombies? Mow the fuckers down. Now I'm being facetious a bit. No, of course it wouldn't be that easy, and ultimately it could rely on a some "shoot them all" strategies, but that doesn't mean it isn't containable. 4) So it's clear that, in case of a zombie outbreak, the correct course of action is to move to Japan. 5) You're pulling of a new version of zombies out of thin air. There is no established canon for zombies, and there is no reason a zombie virus shouldn't turn them into shambling cadavers they're always seen as any more than there is reason it should. I personally go by what I've seen. 6) You can't compare common cold and flu, diseases they're not even trying to eradicate in any serious manner, to this. Again, TB is a far, far greater problem in countries which don't have the ability to deal with it. Also, Asymptomatic? Zombie virus has very clear symptoms, namely people dropping dead and rising as bloodthirsty animals. Also, unlike HIV or Hepatitis, zombie virus generally has a very short incubation period. 7) IDK, rabies? You forget that the same thing that makes them so infectious also makes them easy to deal with. Shooting is not something you'd do to a SARS patient. This is all moot unless we know how much would an average zombie actually be able to actively infect before being neutralized.
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Post by Lunacyde Prime on Sept 27, 2011 20:08:54 GMT -5
i don't know how you confuse a moaning, foaming at the mouth Zombie for a normal rioter lol
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 20:14:13 GMT -5
1) How would the government handle such a pandemic? There is no space large enough to handle all the people that are still alive yet infected, the undead are too many and extremely hostile and the ones that need saving (the uninfected) would be crazed by fear, making them just as potentially violent and hostile as the undead. Aside from nuking cities left and right, there would be no way to get this under their thumb where infantry would be a viable solution.
2) Cutting travel lines only would be effective at preventing a pandemic of this nature. It is a literal waste of time after the fact. There would be very little air traffic by the time this became a pandemic anyway due to large concentrations of population (like an airport) being overrun. In fact, blocking roads and preventing uninfected from escaping would be counterproductive by the time this is pandemic.
3) No way to tell the difference from uninfected and infected with living people and you are dead wrong about it being easy to quarantine every city in the nation, let alone the entire planet. Here is what happens in a military enforced quarantine: No one gets past the line. Not a damn person. Because there is absolutely no way to tell the infected from uninfected, they would bar everyone. That means panic, which leads to aggression, which leads to gunning down everyone that approaches the line or refuses to turn back. And you need to understand that road blocks are not going to do jack shit against the undead. Outposts would be overrun almost immediately. Assuming road blocks somehow are all loaded for bear (unlikely) and are mowing down every zombie that comes there way, they will run out of ammo fast. Really fast. Because there will be millions of infected and not millions of munitions. Supplies take time to move so there will be many broken lines throughout the quarantine.
4) Sure. Except that Japan has an extremely high concentration of people in an extremely limited amount of space. Japan is probably the very last place you want to be in a global zombie outbreak.
5) I am not pulling a new version out of thin air. I am using established zombie versions and disregarding the comical versions. The only people that see zombies as shambling cadavers are people that have not seen a zombie movie made after the 70s.
6) Zeroing in on and nitpicking my argument on two of the numerous diseases out there will not invalidate the point. Are you ignoring my posts on purpose? How many times do I have to tell you the zombie virus is typically asymptomatic until just before it kills you? I know I mentioned this several times so you are either trying to piss me off by ignoring it or you are not reading my posts. Also, I am the one that mentioned its incubation period of hours to weeks myself. You are not telling me something I do not know.
7) Rabies has treatment, it does not remain asymptomatic until it kills you, and it does not create the hostility and aggression that a zombie virus does postmortem. The symptoms do include behavioral changes that can result in violent behavior but this is not actually always the case and most people think that because it makes the family dog violent, it makes humans violent as well. This is not true. Humans sometimes react violently to the anxiety, hallucinations, terror, agitation, and delirium but not always. Not even mostly. Most people just freak out and try to find "safe" places due to the fear like hiding in their homes (assuming they are not hospitalized or otherwise are not aware of their condition). A zombie can infect as long as the body is not destroyed. It is hostile as long as its brain can still function. There is no limit to how many a zombie can infect.
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Post by Erik-El on Sept 27, 2011 20:16:52 GMT -5
i don't know how you confuse a moaning, foaming at the mouth Zombie for a normal rioter lol Have you seen actual riots? Before they get scared off by police, there is not really much that would allow you to tell the difference. In riots that get out of control, people are screaming like crazy, attacking just about everyone not traveling in their direction, and oftentimes are bleeding everywhere. There is no way to tell the difference as an outsider unless you witnessed them eating on people. But if you saw that, what are the chances you would really think it was zombies? How about 0%.
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Painkiller
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Post by Painkiller on Sept 27, 2011 20:20:48 GMT -5
I'd still be shit scared and run away if I saw that, though.
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