Badass CTF: Beatboks vs Dane

[Dane]

Uh yeah, sure. I'll see what I can do.

[Dane]

Fixed.

[Beatboks]

Feb 10, 2013 0:33:49 GMT -5 Dane said:

Feb 10, 2013 0:13:36 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

If the saves are on our respective sides ( which is. What I thought all along) it plays to my concept that our two teams will not even meet in the JY. This is the whole crude of my argument. With the supplies we have it would be tactically poor choice to choose to search the junk yard in this heat with only ( by now ) three canteens . Since. Resources are low items a much smart er choice to go after the flag once supplied. This is why I don t see it as needing my enemy to act a certain, I'm credit ing them with enough grains to do what is in their best interests. Choosing to seek to ingage me in the JY will mean you lack sufficient resources to survive the desert for 10 miles.

Also how does this mean you get anything first and attack. The distance between us is now greater with more cover. When you find your safe will be around the same time we do at most a minute or so different. And now your over 3 miles away not 2.4 to 3.

The exact same problems still persist for you.

You have quite a bit of ground to search and you only have 2 people to do it with. I have 5. I can fan them out and find it quicker. Then we proceed to the middle safe with equipment while you're still looking for yours. By this time we have binoculars and you don't. Your teammates could easily come within visual range. If they're searching as fast as they can, they'll be easy to spot. If they're searching slowly and cautiously it'll take them a very long time.

Either way my 3 man team is heading toward them and they will very likely make contact before your team can get their stuff and get out. Keep in mind my guys are carrying light loads with even distributions of gear. Even if you get your stuff, you have 2 people carrying the equipment of 5 people.

The chances of me catching up with you are extremely high.

The desert conditions are a great equalizer. Those who are faster will raise their body heat more loose fluid quick er and use waterfaster . No one is covering the distance that much quick er without being una far worse condition

Which is exactly why Nikita won't outrun Flint and Lowlight. I mentioned this earlier myself. If she tries to move much faster than them she will dehydrate and die. Keep in mind, she wasn't with your safe team. She has half a bottle of water at most. My team have much better water stores to make the journey at a reasonable pace and stay hydrated.

Still going a little in circles but I'll address.

I don't deny that you will find your safe first with more to look for it ( a little before we find ours) The thing is it wont give you the advantages you seem to think it will, certainly not as much as you believe.

1. Your team wont split up that much to be able to search vastly more territory than mine. They don't have communicators, and wont yell etc. So they will always stay within eye shot of each other. they certainly wont be firing off shots to alert the others to having found the safe.

2. If they do they will have to spend as much time as they spent looking for the safe looking for their team mates (who are still looking for the safe) and specifically the team mate who actually has the key(Even if you've read it that they all have key's like you think with the canteens and knives that I don't) they still need to find the others to actually give them the equipment.

3. They will also then break down and reassemble the weapons to ensure they are in the best working order before even attempting to use them. Remember these weapons have never been fired by any of them they don't know there reliability. That's not something any pro will want to find out in the heat of battle. This will of course affect both teams.

4. If as you say they go for the black safe ( spending more time looking) and then spend a further 5 minutes doing the riddles

5.by the time you've found it Nikita will already be in the desert crossing to your base. She may have only just started or be less than half a mile in but she will be on route. As she will maintain the same speed as your team ( i.e the speed that one can maintain in the desert.

All this adds to the time you spend before you commence your attack toward where "you think" I am. Not tactically very smart because you risk wasting all the water resources you have before crossing the desert. To win the scenario you need to capture my flag and prevent me capturing yours. You have every reason to believe that the opposing team will spend every bit as long arming themselves in the same way you have and therefore every reason tactically to believe that their base ( and therefore Flag) is undefended.

Tactically heading toward the enemy camp for an assault is the smarter decision because

a) you know you can't be fired upon as there is no way that they could have weapons defending the camp

b) You have every chance of reaching the enemy base at the same time if not before your enemy if you leave for it as soon as equipped.

c) it's the only way to know for certain that the water you have will actually be enough to win the scenario.

As to this whole Nikita Won't get to your base quick enough. I only need her to arrive at the same time as your two defenders. She is after all a seasoned infiltration specialist. She has infiltrated and taken down heavily armed fortified bunkers. In one of the mid season eps of season two she entered a motel that had been fortified for a meeting of Oversight. that's the group of government high ups ( senators, generals etc) who "oversee and control all US covert actions including Division. It was under their orders that division did most of the anti democratic stuff that made Nikita go rogue believing the group she worked for was out of control.

See this is why I'm not "relying on a specific set of circumstances " to happen for my plan to work. What I'm relying on is that the team I oppose it tactically smart enough to act the way that would give them the best chance.

Battles are won usually by free thinkers, who go outside the box. The type of plan I have is just that because the tact of choosing to have Nikita go straight out after the flag is very risky. it's risky because her supplies ( no weapons not even a knife , half a Canteen of water for 10 miles ( 20 with return). these are all great risks tactically that if they pay off will give quite a boon. These are the same types of risks that have won every major incursion in history. Doing what the enemy doesn't expect.

Now desert survival without adequate supplies is hard but not impossible. Every plant that grows is in a couple of ways a source of water. Not great water but enough to keep you alive. You can squeeze the moisture out of the leaves etc ( it tastes foul but it wont kill you - it also takes quite a bit of getting used to and if you've done it you know you have to be DAMN thirsty). The better way is digging to the roots system of lower lying plants ( those at the bottom of hills or small dips in the land). digging just there will find you at the very least dampened earth that can quench a thirst slightly ( that one even worse, since you basically sucking on dirt). If your really lucky at the base of some plants ( they would have to be pretty healthy- which I didn't see in the OP pictures) you will come up with a small pool of dirty water.

[Dane]

I'll just address the things I have issue with since you're pretty much agreeing with what I'm saying.

Your team wont split up that much to be able to search vastly more territory than mine. They don't have communicators, and wont yell etc. So they will always stay within eye shot of each other. they certainly wont be firing off shots to alert the others to having found the safe.

Yes, my team won't be out of eyesight, that's fine. Your team has the same problem unless one of your guys is hauling the gear of 5 people. You say it like the same rules don't apply to you. 5 is more than 2, I get my safe faster. Boom.

by the time you've found it Nikita will already be in the desert crossing to your base. She may have only just started or be less than half a mile in but she will be on route.

What is so hard about 'weapons range'. It's 4 miles. 2 miles on a straight shot. Half a mile isn't safe. I've only said that like 10 times.

As to this whole Nikita Won't get to your base quick enough. I only need her to arrive at the same time as your two defenders.

If she arrives at the same time they do, it means they've been walking progressively closer for the last 10 miles. Holy hopscotch, this is why I made sure my guys have guns: so they can shoot people. That's half the point of going to the junkyard. I get guns, you don't get guns. I shoot you, you can't shoot back. It's not complex by design.

Trying to implement crazy complicated tactical plans while you're going half mad from dehydration after walking 20 miles through the desert on half a bottle of water isn't a good idea. I came up with something simple that allows for creative freedom (i.e. tactical brilliance from Frank or James Bond) within reasonable restrictions (i.e. don't go hauling across the desert with no supplies and no hope of getting back).

You also say it like my team couldn't come up with anything that brilliant. Except they did. That's the exact plot of the film Red. Frank Moses is a tactical genius and outwitted the entire CIA by doing something they never expected: rushing them at their headquarters at Langley, getting what he needed and getting out before they knew which way was up.

That's not a unique plan. Except what he needs in the blazing hot desert is some water to drink and some guns to defend himself with, that's why they went for the supplies.

The type of plan I have is just that because the tact of choosing to have Nikita go straight out after the flag is very risky. it's risky because her supplies ( no weapons not even a knife , half a Canteen of water for 10 miles ( 20 with return)

Except that's wrong. The sandbox is 10 miles high, 20 miles wide. She has to go across it and back (40 miles) on half a canteen of water. And that's if she walks in a 100% perfectly straight line, which is impossible. That's not ballsy, it's stupid. I didn't do what you're doing because I thought we'd run low on water if all 5 of them had canteens. 40 miles on a single canteen each is pushing it. That's why I went for the Junkyard supplies, so we'd have more water and you wouldn't. Now if I read it the way you do (i.e. correctly), our whole team only has 1 canteen for all of them. Now the journey doesn't make the extra supplies a 'nice to have' - they're totally essential.

Now desert survival without adequate supplies is hard but not impossible. Every plant that grows is in a couple of ways a source of water. Not great water but enough to keep you alive.

I don't believe for a second that you could survive a 40 mile hike with half a canteen and some tree roots. I just don't buy that. I think my team are in great shape but I would never risk that. Even if she managed to dodge 2 hours of being shot at by Hawkeye, odds are my flag would be buried in the sand in the middle of nowhere and your team would have no chance.

40 miles, at a quick march we're talking 10 hours straight. From 7am to 5pm. The hottest part of the day walking your ass off, non stop with no shade in the freaking hot desert. With half a canteen. That is ludicrous. And you think she's going to be doing kung fu at midday? She'd be lucky if she was standing.

Now we're back to talking in circles. I say it's time to resume voting.

[Beatboks]

Yes, my team won't be out of eyesight, that's fine. Your team has the same problem unless one of your guys is hauling the gear of 5 people. You say it like the same rules don't apply to you. 5 is more than 2, I get my safe faster. Boom.

no denying it. Never have. I even admitted that as a result you would get your gear quicker. Just that if you get your gear 4 or 5 minites before me and therefore still have to get at least 2 miles across a now 4 mile junk yard that still gives me at least (by this point we are all tyring a little) 10 to 12 minutes before you can see us

what is so hard to get about how much that range is reduced when you don't have gun sights and have refracted light conditions because of heat. As a 4th level marksman in my day with a 303 rifle and the right scope I could hit a bullseye with 90% accuracy at about 850 to 900 yards ( that was good but there were better). With only a metal gun sight that would become 65 to 70% accurate at more like 300 yards. I was still just as good a shot but i didn't have the tools to make it. Add in the desert conditions and how images shimmer due to refraction and I'd say take off another 50 yards. half a mile has high percentage chance of survival so at 3 miles ( since we are still on different vectors) is damn safe. You can't shoot what you can't see. At the 5 miles from JY and town at drop off we will only just see the JY and the town.

If she arrives at the same time they do, it means they've been walking progressively closer for the last 10 miles. Holy hopscotch, this is why I made sure my guys have guns: so they can shoot people. That's half the point of going to the junkyard. I get guns, you don't get guns. I shoot you, you can't shoot back. It's not complex by design.

of course she looses time she's taken less water. She has to conserve as well as stop more often to get water from the desert. You can believe or not believe what you like but there is plenty of water to find in the desert if you know where to look. When I completed S.A.S survival training graduation as it were is to be dropped in the desert 15 km's from a base with nothing but a compass ( no water). Australian aboriginal tribes live in the desert without carrying any water what so ever. Also if you trully believe that you can't than you better start looking for a way for you guys to survive because the three canteens of water is no where near enough for 5 men to travel these distances in thee heat of 110F. On a marathon there is water availalble for runners every mile of the 42 mile event. That's without the heat we have here.

You also say it like my team couldn't come up with anything that brilliant. Except they did. That's the exact plot of the film Red. Frank Moses is a tactical genius and outwitted the entire CIA by doing something they never expected: rushing them at their headquarters at Langley, getting what he needed and getting out before they knew which way was up.

AHHH NO I'm actually expecting , nay depending on your team using tactical brilliance and doing what's smart. Your the one who's wasting their resources and time on fruitless tasks and reducing their chances of making act. That is precisely why I don't believe we will even encounter each other in the Junk yard. I thought your team would be TOO smart to expend energy to seek and engage my team that may or may not be there when you only have to take a flag to win the scenario. They know that realize how much better the odds of achieving it are if they get to the enemy base ASAP.

Except that's wrong. The sandbox is 10 miles high, 20 miles wide. She has to go across it and back (40 miles) on half a canteen of water.

correct but if you recall I said ages ago that Matrix will wait in the defending spot in the JY with a canteen for her to return. He will cover Gabe' leaving the JY for a few 100 meters/yards and wait to cover Niki.

When I served I was only involved in three active tours. Two were "Police actions" and the Falkland Islands. The thing is in any combat situation where you have an objective you always try to get as close to the objective as you can before you engage. It increases the element of surprise and usually if you can attack from within the enemy lines doubles your chances because while YOU know your attacking (sneak) the enemy usually don't ( or at least not from within0 and you gain the advantage of them potentially killing themselves through friendly fire ( as they are now reacting to any movement within their lines, or closer than they believed). Tactically, seeking out an enemy instead of just lying in wait is just dangerous. When the very terrain itself is also a hazard that's even more a problem.

Back to voting ( I' going to tie my hands so I can't use a keyboard for a few days - Remember i said I wouldn't post again till voting ended, this break back into debate was your idea, though it is a fun one)

[Dane]

of course she looses time she's taken less water. She has to conserve as well as stop more often to get water from the desert. You can believe or not believe what you like but there is plenty of water to find in the desert if you know where to look. When I completed S.A.S survival training graduation as it were is to be dropped in the desert 15 km's from a base with nothing but a compass ( no water). Australian aboriginal tribes live in the desert without carrying any water what so ever. Also if you trully believe that you can't than you better start looking for a way for you guys to survive because the three canteens of water is no where near enough for 5 men to travel these distances in thee heat of 110F. On a marathon there is water availalble for runners every mile of the 42 mile event. That's without the heat we have here.

Well hey, either way she runs out of water a long time before my guys do. So she loses time, gets shot and you have no hope at all of getting my flag.

AHHH NO I'm actually expecting , nay depending on your team using tactical brilliance and doing what's smart. Your the one who's wasting their resources and time on fruitless tasks and reducing their chances of making act. That is precisely why I don't believe we will even encounter each other in the Junk yard. I thought your team would be TOO smart to expend energy to seek and engage my team that may or may not be there when you only have to take a flag to win the scenario. They know that realize how much better the odds of achieving it are if they get to the enemy base ASAP.

Your guys are headed back to your base, my guys are headed forward to your base. It's not a search and destroy mission as much as it is they're both headed in the same direction. Your 2 guys are carrying a lot of gear with not a sip of water over a 20 mile hike. My guys will probably catch up and shoot them. Then you have 3 dead, no supplies, no water.

[Beatboks]

Your guys are headed back to your base, my guys are headed forward to your base. It's not a search and destroy mission as much as it is they're both headed in the same direction. Your 2 guys are carrying a lot of gear with not a sip of water over a 20 mile hike. My guys will probably catch up and shoot them. Then you have 3 dead, no supplies, no water.

that wasn't what I said. I said Gabe and only Gabe takes some of their weapons back to base for Six and solo as a back up while Matrix covers him leaving and waits for Nikita. Matrix was always holed up some where in the JY

Oh and we are ALL running out of water. that was never in doubt. one plus three canteens of water is about 8 short of what is needed for these distances.

[Dane]

Feb 10, 2013 10:46:39 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Your guys are headed back to your base, my guys are headed forward to your base. It's not a search and destroy mission as much as it is they're both headed in the same direction. Your 2 guys are carrying a lot of gear with not a sip of water over a 20 mile hike. My guys will probably catch up and shoot them. Then you have 3 dead, no supplies, no water.

that wasn't what I said. I said Gabe and only Gabe takes some of their weapons back to base for Six and solo as a back up while Matrix covers him leaving and waits for Nikita. Matrix was always holed up some where in the JY

That would actually work to your very distinct disadvantage. Once they pass the middle of the junkyard they're in your territory. If one of my guys dies in your half of the map, they respawn back at base instantly and will be waiting for Nikita when she comes, fully armed. Meanwhile, if Matrix dies in his half of the junkyard, he's gone for good.

Oh and we are ALL running out of water. that was never in doubt. one plus three canteens of water is about 8 short of what is needed for these distances.

That's why I assumed every got their own canteen, otherwise it's borderline impossible to complete the scenario.

[Beatboks]

That's why I assumed every got their own canteen, otherwise it's borderline impossible to complete the scenario.

When I said that I was using your 1 canteen and 3 each from the safe for each. A person needs to drink 8lt of water a day when they aren't exerting themselves and in the heat of the desert. In these conditions at least half again just to cover lost fluid. I don't know of a single canteen that is larger than 1lt. Each participant here would need the equivalent of at least 12 canteens to be able to do what we are talking about in full condition.

[Dane]

Feb 10, 2013 11:13:17 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

That's why I assumed every got their own canteen, otherwise it's borderline impossible to complete the scenario.

When I said that I was using your 1 canteen and 3 each from the safe for each. A person needs to drink 8lt of water a day when they aren't exerting themselves and in the heat of the desert. In these conditions at least half again just to cover lost fluid. I don't know of a single canteen that is larger than 1lt. Each participant here would need the equivalent of at least 12 canteens to be able to do what we are talking about in full condition.

Yeah, pretty much. I'd say my team's only real chance is to kill Gabe/Matrix and take their canteens. Rules don't actually say anything against corpse looting.

[Erik-El]

It has gotten petty interesting since clarification has been given.

[Erik-El]

Hmmm... Matrix would do fairly well alone at the junkyard. He was unstoppable to everyone except one man.

[Dane]

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

[Supreme Marvel]

Sorry, Beat. I'm voting for Dane. Dutch beat a Predator. Although a teenager. Still had advance technology which included invisibility and yet he beat him with whatever he had around him. That's who you want on your team.

[Erik-El]

Dane - 1
Beatboks - 0

I know we can get more than that. There are at least 8 Ledgers that log on almost every day.

[Beatboks]

Feb 11, 2013 1:38:13 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Dane - 1
Beatboks - 0

I know we can get more than that. There are at least 8 Ledgers that log on almost every day.

Shouldn't that be
Dane - 2
Beatboks -0

Both you and supreme voted for Dane

[Beatboks]

I also meant to ask which 8. The only ones I know who are o daily is You, me, dane, Crom, Fury ans Supreme (usually)- which is only 6.

[Ferro_Vida]

I'm glad Erik bitchslapped me into reading this. That was an impressive fight. You don't find vs. threads of this caliber on CV anymore.

I have to give my vote to Dane, but Beatboks put up a Hell of a fight.

[Erik-El]

Feb 11, 2013 3:31:24 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

Feb 11, 2013 1:38:13 GMT -5 Erik-El said:

Dane - 1
Beatboks - 0

I know we can get more than that. There are at least 8 Ledgers that log on almost every day.

Shouldn't that be
Dane - 2
Beatboks -0

Both you and supreme voted for Dane

My vote was reset when I became tourney mod. So fight. Fight like you could win prize money for this.

[Erik-El]

Feb 11, 2013 3:33:34 GMT -5 Beatboks said:

I also meant to ask which 8. The only ones I know who are o daily is You, me, dane, Crom, Fury ans Supreme (usually)- which is only 6.

The others are daily loggers but non-posters, like Vance.