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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 22, 2011 0:40:04 GMT -5
Actually, magic based characters by definition give middle fingers to science. I disagree because they are outside of science, there they can disregard it without violating it because what they do is by it's very nature separate from science. And over the course of our analysis and counter analysis, we still cannot safely nor surely claim we know all the facts about science. Even the things you claim we have "figured out" I will bet dollar to dime we will be discovering shit we never knew was possible in a few decades. Many, many physicists would disagree with you on the value of what we have so far discovered. There's a reason there hasn't been a big breakthrough in physics since Einstein despite best efforts. There is still a lot to learn, but as many scientist would argue with you, these things will be based on what we have currently discovered and hammered out, not something completely new.
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 22, 2011 0:52:53 GMT -5
@crom:
Well I disagree with your disagreement.
No breakthroughs other than the theory that he was wrong?
There are already new discoveries in science. It happens frequently enough actually. Just because it has not happened with a certain field does not mean it will not. I would certainly hope that no scientists have that mentality or else we would not be making new discoveries and breakthroughs at all.
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Post by DedmanWalkin on Feb 22, 2011 1:01:24 GMT -5
Mutant powers, that cannot be explained biologically, are the result of some form of psionics. Wolverine is a psionic entity, the flesh he uses to interact with the physical world is the same as the rock that Rockslide or the Mercury that Mercury uses to interact with the real world. The X-Gene simply allows for psionic capabilities which exist in a good amount of science fiction, of which the X-men are. It has often been suggested in sci-fi that people may "evolve" into an energy being, the X-men are just following that to a possible conclusion. Remember, this is all fiction so we have to use the fiction's science rather than our own when asked to by the creator in order for willing suspension of disbelief to work. Decoy Elite, of all the possible characters you choose J. Jonah Jameson? Surely you forgot about Rick Jones who... is... A-bomb?!? Well, then surely Nick Fu... damn, life extension serums. Um... Aunt May! Oh yeah, she's a Herald of Galactus. Erm... Eddie Brock is a mild mannered... dammit! This is hard!
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 22, 2011 1:07:04 GMT -5
No breakthroughs other than the theory that he was wrong? unfortunately yes, you ask any theoretical physicist and most will argue that there hasn't been any large leaps in physics since Einstein. They are searching, but they haven't found any thing much past his work. what they have found is string theory, black hole research, and sub-atomic research as well as the infinitely large like astro-physics. And what they have found is just extensions of what little was discovered after Einstein. There are already new discoveries in science. It happens frequently enough actually. Just because it has not happened with a certain field does not mean it will not. I haven't said there hasn't been any discoveries, just a lack of significant break throughs what has been discovered is merely refinement of previous theories of after Einstein, and what mysteries open up from there, no big leap or revolution like Einstein did. Just because it has not happened with a certain field does not mean it will not. that is true, but scientist can discern where the mysteries to discover lie and thus they can discern what must be overcome to make a breakthrough and if one can even be made instead of small adding up discoveries. I would certainly hope that no scientists have that mentality or else we would not be making new discoveries and breakthroughs at all. That mentality is exactly why they are still making discoveries, they are looking at the theory with a rational mind and admitting when they are limited in possibility of advancement, what problems they must overcome first where a breakthrough in one area of knowledge will be necessary for research to be taken further in another area, because that area has hit a ceiling. They know we don't know everything, but they also recognize where we are just stuck and thus how we must aim our research to actually get somewhere, and that's why it's important to know the value of what we do have. And those aren't my words, but those of scientists, respected ones in the community.
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Decoy Elite
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
I've seen things you wouldn't believe
Posts: 4,854
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Post by Decoy Elite on Feb 22, 2011 1:09:34 GMT -5
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Post by Erik-El on Feb 22, 2011 5:26:15 GMT -5
@crom: In science, facts are theory-laden. That itself is a fact. As our knowledge and understanding expands, so to do our theories change which ultimately and eventually changes our 'facts'. Therefore, science and our understanding of the subjects therein are in flux constantly. This conversation is over though due to the 'fact' that it is off topic. If you want to keep discussing the philosophies of science, talk to a scientist because I am sure one would know better than both of us combined. Back to healing factors.... Decoy Elite: Still has Superman's virginity. A super power by any woman's standard in the DCU.
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spidey_17
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With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
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Post by spidey_17 on Feb 22, 2011 6:35:24 GMT -5
I think what Erik is trying to say is that whet he cells does what they do, because these are his powers. Having ice powers or shooting blasts from your eyes does not make more sense than this. =] not it doesn't at all, but them 99% of mutant powers make no sense. Now we are calling their powers PIS? They are powers. We can not1 say that they make no sense.... If this is how Logan's healing factor is supposed to be and do, then i won't argue about that. It's his power. Spider-man sticks to wall and sense danger. These are his powers. Cyclops shoot beams from his eyes. They are his powers. This is what they are supposed to do. =]
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Feb 22, 2011 7:50:23 GMT -5
Didn't she turn into an insect queen, like, a dozen times by now?
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Post by Phantom Stargrave on Feb 22, 2011 7:52:45 GMT -5
Now we are calling their powers PIS? They are powers. We can not1 say that they make no sense.... If this is how Logan's healing factor is supposed to be and do, then i won't argue about that. It's his power. Spider-man sticks to wall and sense danger. These are his powers. Cyclops shoot beams from his eyes. They are his powers. This is what they are supposed to do. =] I think you misunderstood him. He's not talking about disregarding their powers or anything, he's just saying they fly in the face of physics as we know it, and it's true. Just about every comic out there breaks physics regularly.
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spidey_17
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
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Post by spidey_17 on Feb 22, 2011 11:03:14 GMT -5
Now we are calling their powers PIS? They are powers. We can not1 say that they make no sense.... If this is how Logan's healing factor is supposed to be and do, then i won't argue about that. It's his power. Spider-man sticks to wall and sense danger. These are his powers. Cyclops shoot beams from his eyes. They are his powers. This is what they are supposed to do. =] I think you misunderstood him. He's not talking about disregarding their powers or anything, he's just saying they fly in the face of physics as we know it, and it's true. Just about every comic out there breaks physics regularly. Oh, i see. If that's the case, i could agree, but we can still don't say that these characters could not accomplish, what is makes no sense for us. =]
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 22, 2011 22:16:56 GMT -5
He's not talking about disregarding their powers or anything, he's just saying they fly in the face of physics as we know it, and it's true. Just about every comic out there breaks physics regularly. yes this is what I'm saying. Now comics are escapist fantasy so breaks from reality are part and course of the fun. It's just that depending on the manner the break is executed, some powers and their origins annoy me, like mutant powers
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spidey_17
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With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
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Post by spidey_17 on Feb 22, 2011 22:39:37 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to judge mutant powers. Every single power makes non sense 99% of the time as you pointed out. So why should we judge Wolverine's powers and not every comic book character? That's unfair IMO. If this is how his HF is supposed to be and supposed to do then we can not judge it. =]
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 22, 2011 22:49:11 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to judge mutant powers. Every single power makes non sense 99% of the time as you pointed out. I disagree, the amplitude of lack of sense is something we can judge, as well as the execution and the result is has had on stories. So why should we judge Wolverine's powers and not every comic book character? become for some the break if minimal and refreshing for others, it cause annoyance and marty stuism. If this is how his HF is supposed to be and supposed to do then we can not judge it. =] Because if I have reasons to not like how they say it works I am allow to say so and critique it. To me Logan is one of the better Marvel characters, he really is cool, but how his healing factor is written right now turns me off and makes me like him less.
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spidey_17
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With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
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Post by spidey_17 on Feb 22, 2011 23:36:13 GMT -5
I never said that you can not critique his powers. But that does not mean we can discredit them because the make no sense. If that is the case then we should discredit everyone's powers because the make no sense. I understand that you don't like Logan for these certain reasons, but that does not mean you can say that his powers can not grand him what they have shown to be able to grand him. =]
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Decoy Elite
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I've seen things you wouldn't believe
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Post by Decoy Elite on Feb 22, 2011 23:38:19 GMT -5
I actually really like some of the more silly powers. Spot's powers make no damn sense when you think about it, but they're still pretty cool.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 22, 2011 23:44:36 GMT -5
I understand that you don't like Logan I never said I don't like Logan, I said the opposite. What I am positing is I don't like how his powers are written on to many occasions, regardless of if the character himself is cool.
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spidey_17
The Unstoppable Ledgernaut
With Great Power Comes Great.... suffering?
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Post by spidey_17 on Feb 22, 2011 23:48:38 GMT -5
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I see what you mean, but we still can not discredit his powers, because we don't like the way they are written. I mean, it's his power. Like super human durability, super strength, super speed, TP, TK etc.... This is Logan's ability. =]
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 23, 2011 21:02:11 GMT -5
Problem is there is no even fantasy explanation that is half decent why it works that way and the sucks in my opinion
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spoilsport
Team Buster Ledger
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Post by spoilsport on Feb 23, 2011 23:09:19 GMT -5
when black panther said he created a new form of science, dubbed it "shadow science" and claimed that he created it using ancient alchemy and modern day technology, I stopped paying attention to any scientific explanation offered by comic books for why things happen ever.
like I was just reading Messiah Complex, and their explanation for the sentinels going haywire was "oh, nano-bots". aight. I can handle that. nano-bots.
from now I will replace every science term I see in comics with "nano-bots" and "magic" and see it if works better.
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Post by Crom-Cruach on Feb 23, 2011 23:28:18 GMT -5
I still require good explanations, tasteful ones even if they are fictional and unscientific. Logan's powers don't have that, it annoys me.
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